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Thread: Can Christianity Stand Against Norse Paganism?

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    I believe that the perceived aggressiveness and intolerance of Christendom in the Middle Ages was largely the result of a synthesis between the universal message of Jesus (and the Church Fathers) and the pagan spirit that knew all about war and politics of power. Especially the Germanic spirit. It was basically a very interesting cocktail. Charlemagne was just as much a Germanic warrior as he was a Christian.

    Also, I think it's strange to hear modern heathens complain about the demise of our historical faith, when our faith basically revolved around Wyrd. In other words: didn't the Norns themselves decide that Heathendom's time was up?

    And what's more; why are modern heathens complaining about Christianity's intolerance, of all things? It's true that our heathen ancestors accepted and respected that there were many Gods, even if they weren't their "own", but I don't think this was out of any kindness or nobility of spirit. That was just the way it was. Gods were abound and folk were always seeking out which God was strongest and most worthy of worship.

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    Wyrd is not like the 'faith' known from the christian doctrine.
    The christian faith is a predefined way, a one-way, whereas Wyrd is a web, a multi-way in all directions and definable by ones actions, that is cause and effect defining the future possibilites, not even a doomed-to outcome, just a collection of possibilites. That is something complete different. Wyrd evolves around the indivual, the christian faith is the same for all.
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
    Aller Sturm nimmt nichts, weil dein Wurzelgriff zu stark ist
    und endet meine Frist, weiss ich dass du noch da bist
    Gefürchtet von der Zeit, mein Baum, mein Stamm in Ewigkeit

    my signature

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  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rozenstorm View Post
    Lust, envy, wrath for example are considered deadly sins in Christianity. In paganism there virtues.
    Nine Noble Virtues: Courage, Truth, Fidelity, Hospitality, Discipline, Self-Reliancce, Honour, Hospitality, Perseverance.

    Nine Charges:

    1. To maintain candour and fidelity in love and devotion to the tried friend: Though he strike me I will do him no scathe.

    2. Never to take wrong-some oath: for great and grim is the reward for the breaking of plighted troth.

    3. To deal not hard with the humble and lowly.

    4. To remember the respect that is due to great age.

    5. To suffer no evil to go un-remedied and to fight against the enemies of Faith, Folk and Family [some versions read family, nation, race and faith here]: my foes I will fight in the field, nor will I stay to be burned in my house.

    6. To succour the frieldess but to put no faith in the pledged word of a stranger people.

    7. If I hear a fool's word of a drunken man I swill strive not: for many a grief and the very death grows from such things.

    8. To give kind heed to dead men: straw-dead, sea-ded, or sword-dead.

    9. To abide by the enactment of lawful authority and to bear with courage the decrees of the Norns.


    Go inform yourself a little more before you speak, will you?

    The other way of life, that of pagans, muslims, jews alike is that of intolerance, both in doctrine as in action is the antithese
    Actually, you might be wrong there. We just believe that an alien faith may be right for an alien people, but an alien faith cannot be right for our own people.

    Thus, we never avoided struggle when it was necessary to maintain our ethnical-cultural identity.
    What was there to maintain about Germanic ethnical-cultural identity in the crusades?

    Those morals being Christian in Europe, there is nothing to discuss about. It is and always has been Christianity
    Bollocks. So you believe the same BS that before Europe was Christian, it was Jewish or something?

    The folk memories enshrined in Germanic Heathenry are a collective between all folk memories from the dawn of our race, which is a well longer time of memory and moral refination than those of Christianity, our folk has only channeled its memories through Christianity for a good 1,000-1,500 years.

    Next, if you wish to point at the "lawless societies afore Christianity's advent", I would like to mind you that the world's oldest still-sitting parliament is the Althing of Iceland, which has been sitting since 930 CE, 69 years afore their conversion. Long before that, Tacitus mentions the well-developed systems of tribal law.

    The question becomes of that violence is ethical, which you are so eagerly to embrace. Typically pagan. Bashing things, burning monastries, killing monks and meanwhile worshipping the moon or some sort.
    That is hogwash. No "pagan" believes in violence as ethical in all situations. For the most part, we prefer peace over war and diplomacy over violence. However we do accept that sometimes, there may be no other way. Take the following example:

    1. A cold-blooded murderer, who kills of his sick mind: We condemn his deeds, they are clearly not justifiable.

    2. A mother who kills to feed her family: We still do not consider this immediately right, but we would see this as understandable in the given circumstances, she killed out of need. She would still serve a penance, albeit a lesser one than the cold-blood murderer.

    3. A person who kills in self-defence: We can not hold anything against him, he only defended himself against the other one's violence.

    4. What about the man who turns his wife's life support off because he can no longer watch her suffer, and she has requested so? Is he really a murderer?

    But whilst we're at misinterpreting and being ignorant --- is it not Christianity which issues a blanket "Do not Kill", making the man who kills in self-defence a contemptible sinner?

    When you rip a child away from it's mother, you tear away the institution of the Family, that what Christianity protects. What has paganism done for the Family?
    The Odinic Rite's motto is: Faith Folk Family. Does that spell it out to you?

    We Odinists consider the Family the most central and holy unit of society, and do acknowledge that without a functioning Family, the Folk cannot function either.

    It is correct that we are inclined against divorce, but do not have a blanket ban. And that is a purely pragmatic weighing of possibilities. I had an unhappy childhood because my parents separated when I was 2 --- but to be honest, had they been forced to stay together and thrown crockery at each other, beaten each other, shouted at each other ... I think I'd probably have committed suicide by the time I was 7.

    Most pagan religions are polygamous like Islam. Raise your child in a quisi-holebi-environment. Yippie.
    "Of all the Barbarians, the Germanics alone are content with one wife." ---- Cornelis Tacitus, Germania.

    Germanic Heathenism disbelieves in polygamy at large (it is up to debate, but many do not wish to question Tacitus here, as they're quite frankly more than happy with one partner!!!). But, on the other hand --- I seem to recall, that a Christian Denomination, the Reformed Church of Latter Day Saints, supports polygamy and sees it as its central form of family?

    Walhalla does not excist, give me a break. It's the symbolism that matters and the symbolism behind is that, once again, of gloryfing violence.
    How can you make such a correct statement ("The symbolism that matters") and draw a wrong conclusion therefrom ("of glorifying violence")?

    I personally see the symbolism with Walhalla to be quite different: And that is, I see "death in battle" symbolic. A battle can be a person battle, an ethical battle...

    It would be absurd to believe that Walhalla is for the man who dies in Afghanistan, but not for the man who seeks to "fight" for the welfare and safeguarding of his folk by other, not necessarily violent means.

    I see much to be metaphorical, as such I believe that Walhalla is aimed at all type of warriors --- warriors of the sword, warriors of the mind, warriors of the soul. Hel is indeed aimed at for the common man, and the "lesser warriors" who shall walk these Halls before they are re-incarnated into their ancestral line.

    In that it is correct that very few will end up in Walhall at a time, as it is the end of one's spiritual, physical and mental development, but eventually, before Ragnarök, many warriors (be it of the sword, the mind, or the soul) will have gathered there.

    Wrong again, Christianity is on the up, it is only decreasing in Europe trough godless materialism, individualism and liberals though. Yippie for you. Have fun with your hippies.
    Germanic Heathenism is by its nature non-materialistic, tends to be more collectivistic than individualistic (Hello, reference on "Folk" and "Family", not "Individual" ), and is only insofar liberal as is not inconducive to the folk collective.

    Since much liberal approach is detrimental to the folk collective, many of this approach will not be seconded by Odinists/Asatruar/Heathens. Full stop.

    More than Christianity could ever, it is also about the Folk, and the Family ... our "higher goal in life" is to live a life of example, if we are remembered and honoured for it then all the better ... whilst the Christian life is instead much more individualistic, in that you live for the afterlife, which I would consider slightly more selfish:

    We live to improve the life of our kin on this world, you live to imrpove the life of yourself in the afterworld. Which is more selfish now?

    Our God is not a semetic god, it is the God of all men.
    The divine forces are indeed universal, otherwise it would be impossible for me to access them if stranded on a lonely island in the Pacific. They have to be everywhere, otherwise different Gods would apply to the same people depending on where they go.

    So, instead, this God Force as it were, is channelled into manifestation in varying ways by different peoples, each according to the memories, needs and characteristics of that Folk. What is Thor to me will be Taranis to the Celt and Perun to the Slav --- virtually same essence of the divine force, but manifesting differently with a different people.

    There are other ways of looking at it, but I am of the belief: "The Gods made us, yet we were the ones who gave them distinctive features" if you will.

    Do you honestly believe that we do not circumcise and eat pig by coincidence?
    1. Enough Christians Circumcise, including Germanic Christians. Check America.

    2. Perhaps because it would have been impossible to convert our ancestors if you told them they couldn't have a roast pork off the spit?

    You and your kind are historically, political, religious and social not even a blip on the radar.
    Our kin and kind are exactly the same as your kin and kind: Our folk. As to Heathen practices being "off the radar" --- I'd check my own religious and social conventions, customs and memories and perhaps you will realise just how much of it was retained, just in a slightly different form.

    Paganism today is reserved to people who live in the jungle, on the Northpole or somewhere down under. Official pagans in the Western world can't be more than 0.05 %.
    I think the Japanese, who follow their old Shintoistic path besides others, much the way that f.ex. an "Atheist Heathen" would, aren't exactly in the jungle, on the Northpole or somewhere down under, yet instead one of the most developed countries of the Earth.

    Also, India is a little run-down these days but isn't as delapidated as some others. Hindus would be "Pagans" as well, perhaps even more so than most European Heathenries, because they even follow the dictionary definition of "Pagan" - Praying to Idols.

    Your imagined heritage restricts itself to you, an individual, who creates an artificial pagan 'community' like Skadi. If that is your heritage, your community, an internetforum, I'm filled with laughter.
    No, you misunderstand. We discuss certain points of philosophy and worldview. It has long been accepted that "no two Odinists/Asatruar/Heathens think the same way" and as such to exchange how different people have interpreted the lore and the traditions springing therefrom.

    With Christianity's dogmatic approach, there is little to do there in terms of interpretation or discussion, as you can always beat it down with "Doesn't say so in the bible - HERETIC!"

    I go to my church, to my Parish. You turn your computer on.
    We have "Hearths" as well, which are not too different from a "Parish". Religious in outlook and purpose, but at large also a shelter if you need social advice.

    Real heathens never know the notion of conservatism. Real heathens are loooong dead. You and your kind are artificial heathens at most.
    Show me where we are artificial. We have enough organisations running, who all have hearths/kindreds in different localities --- we may not be as densely organised as you are, since we are still "few and far between", for which the internet CAN help to make contact with others ... but I fail to see where we are any more artificial than you are.

    And for the record. Arson and murder are (in every healthy society, except in pagan ones) criminal.
    No believe me, we ALSO consider arson and murder as criminal deeds. But unlike Christians, we do not solely look at the deed itself, we also look at the motives.

    I said this above - you have a blanket "do not kill" ... we grade differently between those who kill in self-defence, those who kill for a good and morally acceptable reason but not in self-defence, and those who kill cold-blooded.

    Vikernes is a matter where many debate because people are not sure what his exact motives were - and he even claims he killed in self-defence. As such, one cannot know whether he really is a murderer or just one who has killed --- and that's what makes him such a polarising person here.

    As to his arson - some see it as morally justified because he felt he did so in the advancement of our faith. And that is a totally different debate --- it is the question as to fanaticism or fundamentalistm, it is the question as to positive or negative approaches, etc.

    And oh, yeah. Varg's real name was Christiaan. He called himself 'Wolf'. Perhaps I'll change my name into Cheetah. It has a nice ring to it. Not.
    Perhaps you might consider that the forename "Wolf" is actually a perfectly normal forename in German --- had you even taken the trouble to inquire about your fellow Germanic country.

    Next --- Yes, to me he is essentially still Kristian Vikernes as far as his public name is concerned. It is the name given to him by his parents, and he should perhaps honour that.

    What he uses as a religious name, is an entirely different matter altogether. Consider a Heathen calling himself "Varg" or "Thorbald" or "Ratatöskr" or whatever no different than from the religious names adopted elsewhere --- for example, Benedict XVI. real name was Joseph Ratzinger.

    Calling him "Benedict XVI" - his religious title would not be in incorrect, as would calling him "Joseph Ratzinger": Difference between given names, which should preferably stay as they are to honour your parents bequeathing them upon you; and religious names for use with your fellow religious man; are two very different things.

    Even your flags, the Nordic Cross flags, are Christian.
    FYI, different types of crosses, albeit in slightly different form, were also part of Germanic, pre-Christian culture.

    Other than that --- my country has no Nordic-Cross flag, I couldn't be concerned any less.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rozenstorm View Post
    Symbolism is most clearly a strike or two out of your league. It is a set of morals that break oaway from selfish natural character, one that paganism embraces. Lust, envy, wrath for example are considered deadly sins in Christianity. In paganism there virtues.
    It has been already well elaborated by Sigurd, so I won't go on about our virtues.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rozenstorm View Post
    The attitude of Christ can never be achieved by mortal men and thus it is the these (cfr. Hegel).
    An attitude that can not be achieved by mortal men is an attitude not made for mortal men.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rozenstorm View Post
    It is that of good, peace in doctrine but not necessarily in action (cfr. supra).
    Heathens are people both of wise thoughts and good actions. A value never practiced in action is nothing more than a whisper in storm.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rozenstorm View Post
    It is a society that sets out moral guidelines. Those morals being Christian in Europe, there is nothing to discuss about.
    Ah yes, well, no matter how hard and deep I look to christian moral values in Europe, I find quite few of them that are actually practiced in society.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rozenstorm View Post
    The question becomes of that violence is ethical, which you are so eagerly to embrace. Typically pagan. Bashing things, burning monastries, killing monks and meanwhile worshipping the moon or some sort.
    Wrong, we use violence only if it's needed, we prefer peace over conflict. However, we don't hesitate to get in combat if our folk and kin is in danger.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rozenstorm View Post
    Most pagan religions are polygamous like Islam. Raise your child in a quisi-holebi-environment. Yippie.

    I don't care about other "pagan religions", I care about germanic heathenism and that was already monogamous before one christian could set foot on the soil of Europe.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rozenstorm View Post
    Walhalla does not excist, give me a break. It's the symbolism that matters and the symbolism behind is that, once again, of gloryfing violence.
    Try reading between the lines, this is not the bible. No one claimed that Walhall literally exists.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rozenstorm View Post
    Yeah, right. We didn't even have to convert most European nations manu militari to achieve Christian Europe, let alone if we did.
    There are other ways to convert which early priests practiced quite well, like spreading lies about damnation to the people while making heavenly promises that would never be kept.
    Early priests did exactly the same what the media does today, spreading lies about a world and reality that never exists and which makes people to be more easily controlled.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rozenstorm View Post
    Wrong again, Christianity is on the up, it is only decreasing in Europe trough godless materialism, individualism and liberals though.
    That godless materialism that you mention is consuming the entire globe not only Europe, we'll see about "the up" in a few years.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rozenstorm View Post
    Yippie for you. Have fun with your hippies.
    I'm not a hippie but a heathen germanic preservationist, and to be honest I'm quite conservative in many ways.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rozenstorm View Post
    Our God is not a semetic god, it is the God of all men.
    I don't want the god of all men, but the god(s) of my own folk and kin.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rozenstorm View Post
    Wrong again! Most European, Germanics alike, choose willingly and without any military force to convert to Christianity.
    Sure, after a good bunch of idiotic lies that make people concentrate more on the heavenly after-life than on their actual deeds "here, now".



    Quote Originally Posted by Rozenstorm View Post
    What I meant to say is, if the space is allready ours, how can we possible invade it?
    This is so typical for a christian, claiming to own everything. Just because you are a majority now doesn't mean that it will be so in 50, 100 years. Owning something is easy to claim but to defend it, that's the real task. Unfortunately the "space that you claim to own" seems to be overrun by foreigners and the majority of the people (that you say are rightfully christians) seem to welcome them with arms wide open, because your god "is the god of all men" and because he is merciful right?

    On the contrary, as already mentioned, germanic heathenism focuses on our folk and kin and IS made for germanics only!
    It's the one thing that forges worthy and strong warriors from us, germanics.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rozenstorm View Post
    You and your kind are historically, political, religious and social not even a blip on the radar.
    Wrong. There are various LEGAL organizations that embrace various forms of germanic heathenism. Want a list?


    Quote Originally Posted by Rozenstorm View Post
    Paganism today is reserved to people who live in the jungle, on the Northpole or somewhere down under.Official pagans in the Western world can't be more than 0.05 %.
    Because being a heathen is not about being "official" or to be loudly accepted and considered by society.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rozenstorm View Post
    But again I ask you, since you speak of pagan communities and heritage? Your parents? Your grandparents? Your family? Your countrymen? Your friends?


    My mother was baptized at the age of 7 for various reasons, so you would call her a pagan, but that doesn't change the wonderful qualities she has as a person. She's a professional gardener, florist and a herbalist, not really a "christian job" eh?
    My father is an atheist, my grandfathers from both sides are the same which is obvious, once you fight a world war you have the opportunity to see how real your claimed "god" is on the battlefield...



    Quote Originally Posted by Rozenstorm View Post
    If that is your heritage, your community, an internetforum, I'm filled with laughter. I go to my church, to my Parish. You turn your computer on.
    While you go to your church, I have a life to live by values not set by a foreign god who threatens me with death and slavery and who considers me dishonorable before I was born.
    I'm not that weak to be motivated for worthiness only by death.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rozenstorm View Post
    Real heathens never know the notion of conservatism. Real heathens are loooong dead. You and your kind are artificial heathens at most.

    We are no less real than you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rozenstorm View Post
    And oh, yeah. Varg's real name was Christiaan. He called himself 'Wolf'. Perhaps I'll change my name into Cheetah. It has a nice ring to it. Not.
    I know what is his real name. And oh yeah, I see that you can't make the difference between a Wolf and a Monkey.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rozenstorm View Post
    Your pagan ancestral path is dead, mate. (cfr. supra). Your blood is Germanic and that is something to be proud of. But blood is no religion. Even your flags, the Nordic Cross flags, are Christian.
    No it's actually Jesus who is dead, mate. (if he ever existed)
    Germanic people were heathen long before this alien belief infested their mind.
    Indeed, blood is no religion, but no alien semitic religion can go with this blood.
    :Überschöpfung:



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    Can Christianity Stand Against Norse Paganism?

    Short answer yes....the problem I see is not paganism or Christianity, it is self loathing! I am a Christian and I refuse to be butchered by bedouins, socialists, anarchists, communists, marxists, social scientists, global warming alarmists, Barack Hussein Obama, etc! Where as the majority of Germanic Peoples are gladly handing their birth right over to usurpers. What just exactly are they thinking? That muslims will somehow be converted to the idea of social utopia? PLEASE.....It is time we understood what faith really is, embrace our christian roots and fight for what is ours! Sorry, this christian is not going to be fed to the lions, and I will protect my christian brothers and sisters with the same zeal!
    Last edited by prodeutsch; Tuesday, May 12th, 2009 at 05:04 PM. Reason: Changes Scandinavians to Germanic Peoples

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar
    You have pasted some meangingless modern Odinic/Asatru virtues. Key word - modern, it means nothing. Anyone could invent them...they mean nothing.
    Source / proof that they are 'newly invented'?
    Beside your 'dangerous half-knowledge'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar
    You need to find ancient sources of Odinist virtues to back up your claims, the virtues described in the bible are thousands of years old.

    (note, i am not pro-christian or pro-pagan, i am just saying you attack christianity when it has older and documented virtues.)
    Ah, yeah, right, only the written word is true. Lock away older scripts and put out some new and none-thinking people will believe everything
    That is how the brainwash media today still works

    Oh, btw, half of the bible was written in the second and third century AFTER assumed (and never proven) Jesu life... but it's written, so it must be true *lol* ridiculous
    None of the recorded 'events' are backed up with history, there is not even a proof that the romans nailed 'jesus' to the cross. They nailed thousands to crosses (which might make you think about your link between cross and christianity), indeed, but as far as the records of the romans are concerned, there was no Jesus of Nazareth.
    Hmm, but it is written, IT MUST BE TRUE, bäh...

    And thousands of years there is nothing, the talmud is partly (very small parts) about 2500 years old, some scripts of the kabbala are about 1500 years old, the rest is written afterwards and the most of it only when islam turned to become a threat to judaism, as it was, like every old religion, and lets see that clear here, also judaism intentionally was a pagan religion, based on oral tradition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar
    Norse Pagans...

    They base their beliefs on the Eddas.

    Guess what?

    The Eddas were written by a Christian writer.

    Care to explain?
    There is much more lore than only the Eddas, maybe you want to inform yourself before you make such claims?
    There is lore dating back to the sixth to eighth century, a time when not a single christian has set his feet on northern europe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar
    So i would suggest you stop attacking each others faiths, as they are closer linked then you could imagine...
    Yes, indeed, Satan was invented to bind all pagan gods and condemn them as evil demons and Jesus, the savior, was invented to be the spell that destroys their very existence. Went not so good for the christians as it seems, they're still there, and to lend out the signature of a member here:
    My God has a hammer, your God was nailed to the cross. Any questions?

    Anyway, the basic point is that judaism / christianity is a middle eastern religion, and even when we assume that the figures were real, they are still alien to us europeans. What might be the savior to one folk might very well be the 'satan' to all others and vice versa. Christianity has nothing to offer for us, beside the condemnation of our gods as evil demons, which would draw a quite one-sided and not very sophisticated view, and for christianity it is easy: Jesus is the good guy (hmm, who didnt save us, opposed to the common believe, within the last 1700 years from our sins), the rest is satan, people who dont believe the lie, eh the message, are not even considered humans. Makes life as easy as intolerant: either you follow my lies, eh message or I kill you.
    I really have a hard time to understand how ANYONE with a halfway working brain could EVER believe that bs and believe that this has anything to do with peace. That is nothing but hate and control compulsion...


    Some things to consider:

    [snip]
    In summary, every character in the bible was stolen form Pagan Gentile religions and replaced with a Jewish character:

    * Jewish monotheism was stolen from Egyptian Akhenaton

    * The Jewish creation was stolen from the Egyptian Creation

    * The Jewish Yahweh's use of the word to create was stolen from the Egyptians (Jewish Yaweh replaces Ptah)

    * "Let there be Light" was stolen from the Theban Creation epic

    * The "firmament in the midst of the waters…" was stolen from the Egyptian Creation

    * Adam and Eve were stolen from the Egyptian Geb and Nut

    * Eve coming from Adam's rib was stolen from the Epic of Enki and

    Ninhursag: "My brother what hurts thee?
    "My rib hurts me"
    ANET, 41.
    Ninti who's name means
    "Lady of the Rib" cured Enki's rib

    * Adam and Eve's punishment and loss of immortality were stolen from the Mesopotamian story of Adapa
    (Jewish Yaweh replaces Sumerian Enki)

    * Jewish Cain, Abel and Seth were stolen from Osiris, Set and Horus

    * The conflict between Cain and Abel was stolen from Set and Osiris and as the story goes on, it is later based upon the Sumerian Dumuzi and Enkimdu

    * Jewish Samson was stolen from Heracles,


    o The putting out of his eyes is based on Oedipus

    o The pulling down of the pillars was stolen from the Egyptian tale about Re-Herakhte

    * The Jewish story of Jacob and the Ladder was stolen from the Egyptian Funerary Rituals for the deceased King

    "Hail to thee, O Ladder of God, Hail to thee, O Ladder of Set. Stand up O Ladder of God, Stand up O Ladder of Set, stand up O Ladder of Horus, whereon Osiris went forth into heaven.” “The Egyptian Ladder consisting of the bodies of two Egyptian deities upon which Osiris ascends into heaven, has been replaced by a ladder with several supernatural beings, angels, climbing up and down between earth and heaven."



    The Jewish book of Judges is comprised of material stolen from:

    * The Story of Aqhat
    * The Diary of Wen-Amon
    * The Gezer Almanac

    * The Jewish books of Samuel and Kings contain stolen material from: The Mari Prophecies
    * The Stele of Mesha
    * The Karatepe Inscription
    * The Annals of Shalmaneser III
    * The Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III
    * The Annals of Tiglath-Pileser III
    * The Annals of Sargon II
    * The Siloam Inscription
    * The Yavne-Yam Inscription
    * The Lachlish Letters
    * The Arad Ostraca
    * The Annals of Sennacherib
    * The Annals of Nebuchadnezzar II

    * More stolen material in the biblical books of Ezra and Nehemiah from: The Cylinder of Cyrus



    * Jewish Mordecai stolen from the Babylonian God Marduk

    * Jewish Esther and the Jewish book of Esther was stolen from Ishtar, aka Astaroth, Astarte, Ashtar.

    * The Jewish Virgin Mary "Queen of Heaven" was stolen from Astaroth

    * Jewish John the Baptist stolen from Anup, baptizer of Horus; both lost their heads.

    * Jewish Judas was stolen from Set.

    * Jewish Matthew was stolen from Thoth

    * Jewish Thomas was stolen from Tammuz

    * "Like Jesus, the Greek God Hermes was also wrapped in swaddling clothing and placed in a manger, as was Dionysus."

    [snip...some more pages]


    Now, the written word is true? Surely not
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
    Aller Sturm nimmt nichts, weil dein Wurzelgriff zu stark ist
    und endet meine Frist, weiss ich dass du noch da bist
    Gefürchtet von der Zeit, mein Baum, mein Stamm in Ewigkeit

    my signature

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  11. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar View Post
    You have pasted some meangingless modern Odinic/Asatru virtues. Key word - modern, it means nothing. Anyone could invent them...they mean nothing.
    1. Modern is not meaningless. So what if we practice some things that are in the spirit of our ancestors but weren't exactly done by our ancestors. Imagine a scenario where an 8th century Norseman discards his idea about wearing a Mjollnir "because it's not written in the lore". As long as traditions and values organically evolve, it is fine.

    2. Actually, if you looked a little closer, many of the lines in the Nine Charges are directly, or in adapted form, taken from the Havamal. Ancient enough, that source? The Nine Noble virtues are technically again taken from what was perceived to be the spirit of that lore, and is "described in the Eddas and elswewhere " as it were.

    You need to find ancient sources of Odinist virtues to back up your claims, the virtues described in the bible are thousands of years old.
    Read the Havamal. It should be posted somewhere around here. I take my values directly from the observations in the Havamal.

    (note, i am not pro-christian or pro-pagan, i am just saying you attack christianity when it has older and documented virtues.)
    Read Tacitus again. He mentions a lot about the values and practices of the ancient Germanics.

    All this Odinist nonsense is modern rubbish...it's no different then other modern false religions and cults such as the 'jedi' (a stupid ''spiritual'' religion based on Star Wars)...

    as i said please back up your claims with ancient sources.
    It was the modern followers of Odinism vs. the modern followers of Christianity which was at question here, not the ancient followers of Odinism vs. the ancient followers of Christianity.

    As such, I consider your point as absolutely invalid. Other than that, go re-read the ancient sources yourself, be that the Icelandic Sagas, or Tacitus' "Germania", be that Widukind or be that even Saxo Grammaticus.

    Norse Pagans...

    They base their beliefs on the Eddas.

    Guess what?

    The Eddas were written by a Christian writer.
    I am fully aware of Snorri being a Christian monk. Some say that he was only "nominally Christian", but I disbelieve in that; I believe his collection was to make a "definitive, Christianised" version of the tales to preclude the oral tradition preserving tales differently, so I am poised to agree: Yes, we must not bind ourselves by the Eddas alone.

    I suggest reading the recently published "The Asatru Edda", available through Amazon, where the author has intensively spent two decades looking at ancient sources to produce an "alternative" Edda untainted of the Christian influence.

    As a supplement, I suggest also reading "Odinic Mythology Pt. I & II" by the Circle of Ostara, which also takes a critical look towards the preserved sources, as a supplement, as they also suggest possibilities of how Snorri may have distorted ancient myth.

    Finally, you are mainly talking about the Prose Edda here. The author of the Poetic Edda is unknown, some poems are thought to predate Christian arrival in Iceland, going back to the earl 9th century.

    So i would suggest you stop attacking each others faiths, as they are closer linked then you could imagine...
    I would suggest that certain members like Rozenstorm, who attacked other faiths first should stop doing so, as most of their claims were absolutely uninformed.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Oh, btw, half of the bible was written in the second and third century AFTER assumed (and never proven) Jesu life... but it's written, so it must be true *lol* ridiculous
    The Eddas were written from the 9th-11th century AD, the Bible was written from as early as 1500BC (early parts of the Old Testament).

    The Vedas of India predate the Bible by about 300 years (1800BC), then the Pyramid texts from Egypt which are even older.

    Europe also has many old religious writings...

    Sanchuniathon in the 14th century wrote his Phoenician History which detailed both a mixture of Indo-European and Semitic deities. There is also the Frisian Oera Linda Book which is thousands of years old. If you want the true Norse ''pagan'' laws read the Tex laws of the Oera Linda Book.

    - No Drinking.
    - Chastity until about twenty-five.
    - No gambling.
    - Monogamy.
    - Must support a Theocratic rule (ie Monarchy or priesthood).

    I doubt anything of these things apply to you, and it is interesting to note these Tex laws are more similar to those found in Christian literature (note, again i am not favouring Christianity over Paganism).

    None of the recorded 'events' are backed up with history, there is not even a proof that the romans nailed 'jesus' to the cross. They nailed thousands to crosses (which might make you think about your link between cross and christianity), indeed, but as far as the records of the romans are concerned, there was no Jesus of Nazareth.
    Hmm, but it is written, IT MUST BE TRUE, bäh...
    Lots in the Old Testemant has been proven as has some things in the Book of Revelation of the New Testament.

    You view the Bible as a piece of religion, when it is a valid document of history.


    Went not so good for the christians as it seems, they're still there, and to lend out the signature of a member here:
    My God has a hammer, your God was nailed to the cross. Any questions?
    No idea what you are typing. I never said i was christian, reread my post(s). I said Norse paganism and Christianity are one and the same...

    As for if Jesus existed when the Bible states he did, it does not matter, as Jesus is an archetype found in most mythologies...which reveal their Aryan origins.

    Odin was pierced with a spear = The Biblical Spear of Longinus....learn the similarities between religions and myth...

    As for the silly Thor, hammer remark, Gods personal weapon in the Bible is stated none other then a hammer...

    Jeremiah 23:29:

    "...is not My word like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?"


    Anyway, the basic point is that judaism / christianity is a middle eastern religion
    Christianity is Indo-European not middle-eastern.

    If you read the Book of Enoch, it describes Enoch and Noah's travel to Northern Europe, Enoch found a gate to heaven there. The biblical concept of heaven was based on northern europe.

    If you read the Book of Revelation, it describes Heaven as being surrounded by a sea of ice, relating to the far northern Arctic Ocean...nothing to do with middle-east...


    and the rest of your comment you pasted from some website...ok..you also prove that all religions share a single origin which was my point from the start.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar
    Lots in the Old Testemant has been proven as has some things in the Book of Revelation of the New Testament.
    Like the funny story that jesus died in india as a old and happy man, father of fife or something?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar
    You view the Bible as a piece of religion, when it is a valid document of history.
    It is a piece of religion, there is no valid document of history, half of the translations that you know are wrong. The scripts of Qmran are valid history documents, the bible certainly not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar
    No idea what you are typing. I never said i was christian, reread my post(s). I said Norse paganism and Christianity are one and the same...
    Just quoted someone else. Anyway, christianity (monotheism) is certainly not paganism (polytheism), the former is designed to degrade the polytheistic panthoen to a collection of demons and evil spirits. Now tell me that this is the same...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar
    As for if Jesus existed when the Bible states he did, it does not matter, as Jesus is an archetype found in most mythologies...which reveal their Aryan origins.
    Then judaism is of aryan origin too


    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar
    Christianity is Indo-European not middle-eastern.
    Christianity is the split-up sect from judaism, the latter not believing in the messiah, that they are still waiting for. Now you want to tell me that judaism is a european religion too, yes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar
    If you read the Book of Enoch, it describes Enoch and Noah's travel to Northern Europe, Enoch found a gate to heaven there. The biblical concept of heaven was based on northern europe.
    Please scan the page and show me that they said they travelled to a place called 'northern europe'

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar
    If you read the Book of Revelation, it describes Heaven as being surrounded by a sea of ice, relating to the far northern Arctic Ocean...nothing to do with middle-east...
    Maybe the place surrounded by ice was just Crimea?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar
    and the rest of your comment you pasted from some website...ok..you also prove that all religions share a single origin which was my point from the start.
    You didnt get the point. All pagan religions might have a common origin, christianity, still a jewish invention (as you may know there have been 'christians' before assumed jesu birth, believing in the soon coming messiah) stole figures and archetypes from the surrounding pagan believes, twisted them, renamed them to simulate a history/tradition that it never had.

    I find it deeply ridiculous to state that christianity would be something european, if you take that book as historically valid, then you must realise that all the given places are middle eastern, in the very area of judaism, namely: Israel (the holy land with the chosen people), that christianity is a sect of judaism.
    You cant honestly pretend that it is of european origin. That is absurd
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
    Aller Sturm nimmt nichts, weil dein Wurzelgriff zu stark ist
    und endet meine Frist, weiss ich dass du noch da bist
    Gefürchtet von der Zeit, mein Baum, mein Stamm in Ewigkeit

    my signature

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar View Post
    The Eddas were written from the 9th-11th century AD, the Bible was written from as early as 1500BC (early parts of the Old Testament).
    You mean the old testament that was written by early jews?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar View Post
    The Vedas of India predate the Bible by about 300 years (1800BC), then the Pyramid texts from Egypt which are even older.
    Off-topic.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar View Post
    Europe also has many old religious writings...

    Sanchuniathon in the 14th century wrote his Phoenician History which detailed both a mixture of Indo-European and Semitic deities.
    Again you are going off topic. The thread is about: Can Christianity Stand Against Norse Paganism?




    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar View Post
    There is also the Frisian Oera Linda Book which is thousands of years old. If you want the true Norse ''pagan'' laws read the Tex laws of the Oera Linda Book.
    That's not a valid source since many still argue that it might by a hoax.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar View Post

    - No Drinking.
    - Chastity until about twenty-five.
    - No gambling.
    - Monogamy.
    - Must support a Theocratic rule (ie Monarchy or priesthood).

    I doubt anything of these things apply to you, and it is interesting to note these Tex laws are more similar to those found in Christian literature (note, again i am not favouring Christianity over Paganism).
    Like drinking ale would be a crime or not drinking would be a virtue.
    Everything in moderation, it was a main goal for germanics. Monogamy is a question of honor not a rule imposed by authority, etc.

    Again, we're discussing something that was made to control those who are too weak and unworthy to control themselves.



    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar View Post

    Lots in the Old Testemant has been proven as has some things in the Book of Revelation of the New Testament.
    Things like?


    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar View Post
    You view the Bible as a piece of religion, when it is a valid document of history.


    If people were basing on the bible as a valid document of history we would have a more brainwashed society right now than we ever had.



    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar View Post
    I said Norse paganism and Christianity are one and the same...
    Sure, and I am a devoted christian while I claim myself to be heathen. Seriously, do you have the slightest idea about what you post here?

    (I remember the same type of approach when you compared early rock and roll with norwegian black metal , anyway, that's off topic)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar View Post
    Odin was pierced with a spear = The Biblical Spear of Longinus....learn the similarities between religions and myth...
    Aha, with the slight difference that while Allvater pierced himself, Jesus was nailed to the cross like a slave.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar View Post
    As for the silly Thor, hammer remark, Gods personal weapon in the Bible is stated none other then a hammer...

    Jeremiah 23:29:

    "...is not My word like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?"
    That is speculation, because in our myths it is clearly defined what the hammer is, who forged it, and there are various stories that unfold around the hammer.
    A simple metaphor will not make the semitic god equal with our Thundering One.
    :Überschöpfung:



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