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Thread: English Origins: Y Chromosome Evidence for Anglo-Saxon Mass Migration

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    Post Re: English origins

    Quote Originally Posted by Darius
    I understand the Norman question, but the presence of mediterranid phenotypes in Britain does not annegate the fact that the Romans left their part in the British genetic pool. Though predominantly the genetic pool of brits is Germanic, we must not also forget the intermingling with the Celtic people.
    Call me old fashioned but I still hold to the view that the Anglo-Saxons slaughtered the Wealas. Any residual Celtic admixture in the Germanic English population would therefore be negligible.

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    Senior Member Vestmannr's Avatar
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    Post Re: English origins

    Quote Originally Posted by Darius
    I understand the Norman question, but the presence of mediterranid phenotypes in Britain does not annegate the fact that the Romans left their part in the British genetic pool. Though predominantly the genetic pool of brits is Germanic, we must not also forget the intermingling with the Celtic people.
    The problem is that the phenotypes are not 'Mediterranid'. That term has little use. Atlantid is much more common in Britain than 'Med'. The British gene pool and grave sites are largely 'Roman free', if one means the South Italian culture that built the city of Rome. The great majority of Roman units in Britannia (and thus settlers) were from 'Barbarian areas. To get a good picture of what settlement is like, and why the genetic types of Britain, consider:

    We have pre-historic populations: basically UP/Atlantid folk.

    Then there is the 'Celtic' invasion, which from the historical record we can only begin to pin down with the Belgae (who might not be genetically separate from the later Franks, Frisians, Batavians.)

    Then, the Romans come. An example of what 'types' enter Britannia under Roman occupation can come from a listing of troops stationed in what is today Southern Scotland and the English Borders.
    2 Regiments of Asturian Cavalry (Spanish Celts)
    1 Regiment Vettonian Cavalry (Spanish Celts)
    1 Regiment Pannonian Cavalry (Central European Celts)
    1 Regiment Tungrian Cavalry (Belgian Celts)
    3 Regiments Gallic Cavalry (Gallic Celts)
    1 Cohort Dacian Infantry
    1 Cohort German Infantry (raised in Dacia)
    1 Cohort Spanish Cavalry
    1 Cohort Tungrian Infantry (Belgian Celts)
    1 Cohort Tungrian Cavalry (Belgian Celts)
    1 Cohort Vangiones Infantry (Upper Germans)
    1 Cohort Vardulli Cavalry (Spanish Celts)
    1 Cohort Roman Infantry
    1 Cohort Aquitanian Cavalry
    1 Cohort Asturian Cavalry
    1 Cohort Baetasii Infantry (Lower Germany)
    1 Cohort Batavian Cavalry (Netherlands)
    1 Cohort Batavian Infantry (Netherlands)
    1 Cohort Breuci Infantry (Pannonian Celts)
    1 Cohort Cornovii Infantry (from Cornwall)
    1 Cohort 'Ulpia Triana' Infantry (Lower Germany)
    3 Cohorts Dalmatian Cavalry
    1 Cohort Frisian Infantry
    3 Cohorts Gallic Cavalry
    1 Cohort Hamian Archers (Syrians)
    5 Cohorts 'Lingonum' Infantry (Upper Germany)
    1 Cohort Morinorum Infantry (Gallic Celts)
    2 Cohorts Nervii Infantry (Gallic Celts)
    2 Cohorts Pannonian Infantry (Celts)
    1 Cohort Raetian Infantry (Swiss-Germans)
    3 Cohorts Thracian Cavalry
    7 Numerus Frisian Cavalry
    1 Numerus 'Tigrisenium' Lightermen (Mesopotamian boatmen)
    2 Numerus Raetian Infantry
    1 Numerus Moorish Infantry
    1 Numerus 'Venatores' British Scouts

    The Hamians and Tigris boatmen were likely of Assyrian type (similar to Alpine.) The great bulk, as one can see, were German and Celtic/Gallic. One unit was Roman. The other 'large minorities' were Thracian, Dacian, and Dalmatian units. (No doubt another reason we have Dinaric Britons?) Also, it was typically the Auxiliary units and Irregulars that were allowed to settle after retirement in frontier areas like Brittania. The 'Romans' themselves left Britain rather than retire there, and according to British history left entirely with the death of Magnus Maximus in 383 A.D.

    The Anglo-Saxon invasions were actually invasions of Saxons, Angles, Jutes, Frisians (very important), Wends, and even some Franks and Danes. Included in this number were Celtic types absorbed and enthralled in previous centuries. The Viking settlements were more of the same, likely also bringing in some Baltic blood (as we can say that the R1a present in Britain is most likely from Viking sources.)

    The Normans were Danes, but also had intermarried into the local 'Gallo-Romans' - who were Roman only in language and law. Their culture and 'blood' was still primarily the Germanic-Celtic mixture common to Northern France/the Rhine/the Low Countries for more than a thousand years previous.

    Again, Atlantid types are what most are miscalling 'Med' in Britain. Roman and Celtic Britain had already had extensive Germanic settlement before later Anglo-Saxon invasions. Some even postulate that the pre-Roman tribe of the Coritani were actually Germanic as well.

    So, historically when we say 'the Romans came to Britain', we mean the Roman law, military, etc. - not Roman genes or phenotypes. Most of the 'Romans' who came to Britain and settled were in fact Germans, Gauls, Celts, Dalmatians, Dacians, and Thracians... there might have been a few Romans here and there, but being sent to Brittania for a noble Roman would have been exile. Their impact was slight if any at all.

    Added: I should have added this. Besides the fact that the Viking and Anglo-Saxon invasions probably included individuals who were basically 'Celtic' or 'Gallic' - or indistinguishable by genetics from some peoples already in Britannia. Particularly, the 'Norman' invasion was only partially Norman. One whole wing of the Conqueror's Army was Flemish, and the other was Breton. With the Norman invasion, both Low German and Celtic peoples entered Britain yet again. So, things are not so simple with British history as 'Celt, Saxon, Norman/Viking'.
    Last edited by Vestmannr; Thursday, August 26th, 2004 at 08:05 PM.
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    Post Re: English origins

    Quote Originally Posted by AryanKrieger
    Call me old fashioned but I still hold to the view that the Anglo-Saxons slaughtered the Wealas. Any residual Celtic admixture in the Germanic English population would therefore be negligible.
    Well, documentary evidence would seem to disprove this idea, because it shows that there was mixing between the Anglo-Saxons and the native Britons. For example in Anglo-Saxon law there were many clauses for the Welsh.

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    Post Re: English origins

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontiersman
    The Hamians and Tigris boatmen were likely of Assyrian type (similar to Alpine.)
    The Assyrid is actually less Alpine than Armenids are, although they're often confused with them, but they're also related to the Orientalid type. You can think of them as less distinct Armenids.

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    Post Re: English origins

    Quote Originally Posted by AryanKrieger
    Call me old fashioned but I still hold to the view that the Anglo-Saxons slaughtered the Wealas. Any residual Celtic admixture in the Germanic English population would therefore be negligible.
    The problem is we have no history nor tradition of any such slaughter. The genetics indicate that the Celts stayed there. Archaeologically, we know they continued ... often merging with Saxons, and in some cases continuing Roman culture in small villages (complete with the Christian faith) all the way up til the period when the English were entirely Christian. Historically, even many of the Royal lines of various English kingdoms had Celtic admixture as Celtic/Brythonic names were common. We know many parts of England remained mostly or with high numbers of British, and even had some autonomy til being assimilated (not slaughtered): Kent, Elmet, the Chilterns, Somerset, Devonshire, Cornwall, Bernaccia, Cumbria, the Fens, etc.) We even know of one entire British tribe that was allied with the Anglo-Saxon invasion in SW Britain.

    The idea of a 'Anglo-Saxon slaughter of Celts' comes primarily from Gildas who was writing a polemical/religious work, not a history. His intention was not to record some holocaust but to call the folk of Britain to repentance. Exaggeration of 'evangelistically speaking' is the norm with this sort of writing. We know Gildas exaggerated: there are no piles of bones. Some deaths did happen, but nothing more serious than the depredations of the Vikings upon the English and Celts (the Vikings also were primarily settlers, not plunderers/rapists/murderers). The only other bit of evidence that is served up is a law from Offa's Mercia about killing any 'wild Welsh' found over the dyke. However, we do not find Offa purging the native Britons in his own kingdom, or turning on Elmet or those Britons still in the south or cities. With the term 'Wild Welsh', the term 'Wild' is key: it was not describing anyone of Britonnic race, but rather anyone from the mountain tribes to the West: IOW, those living in the old tribal manner... not the civilized and now 'Anglicized' Britons of the former Roman provinces.
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    Post Re: English origins

    Excuse me for my ignorance, but I think there were also the true English apart from , the Celto/Germanic ones. Or?...Did such people exist?

    "Among the ever increasing threat, against the bearers of civilisation. There are no Celts, there are no Nordids, there are no Latins, There are just Europeans!"

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    Post Re: English origins

    Quote Originally Posted by Darius
    Excuse me for my ignorance, but I think there were also the true English apart from , the Celto/Germanic ones. Or?...Did such people exist?
    The words England and Anglia are thought to come from Ing, which is thought to be another name for Freyr, a Germanic deity. If this is correct, then until the cult of Freyr arrived there wouldn't have been any "English".

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    Post Re: English origins

    Quote Originally Posted by Darius
    Excuse me for my ignorance, but I think there were also the true English apart from , the Celto/Germanic ones. Or?...Did such people exist?
    No such thing as 'true English'. The closest we may come to that might be the Angles, where some claim we have the name English. I contend that English/England is not from Angle, but from descendants of Yngvi of which the Frisians were one tribe (along with the Angles, being of the cultus of Freyr, and their elite counting descent from the Swedish king Yngvi.) The Low Country, NW Germany, the Danish peninsula: all had Celtic inhabitants, and German inhabitants. They were mixed. Even the Frisians only had an upper class originating in Uppsala (thus the Ing- connection). The truth is, across a broad area of NW Europe, it is difficult to identify what is German, what is Celtic: our first historical mention of Germans in fact is as allies of Celts.

    What we call English is ultimately this Celto-Germanic melding of Briton, Belgae, Roman, Anglo-Saxon, Norse, and Norman. There is a mythos that developed in the Victorian era that tried to purge English history of both Briton, Celt, Roman, Viking and Norman. One gets a taste of it with Sir Walter Scott's creation of this 'segregated' Saxon-Norman fictional history (good Saxons, evil Nomans). In this view, the noble Anglo-Saxons (no Wends, Frisians, or Jutes) land as the Romans rot away, kill all the Celts except those that flee to the far West/North, then live in Utopia til the Vikings come, which they successfully drive off, then the Normans come and oppress them, til they die off, then the Angevins, etc. etc. - with this idea of Anglo-Saxon purity (baffling to anyone who has ever bothered to just take a note of what the English populace *looks like*.) Archaeology, Genetics, and the primary sources themselves never supported this baffling view which was actually closely tied to the British Israelitist theory popular in certain circles of 18th/19th c. England.

    Added: I was typing this as Atlanto-Med posted, but basically what she said. It should be noted: not all the Anglo-Saxons were of Freyr's cultus or counted descent from Ing. Many of the Saxons were worshippers of their ancestor-god Woden, and some Irminsul made it to England as well. I have no idea what evidence we have for the religious cults that the Wends might have brought.
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    Post Re: English origins

    You know that the Kingdom of Jorvik was founded by Uppsala? The throne at Sjaelland was merely a familial coordinator to extend the distance of Swedish rule into Britain. Later on as the Swedes and Danes went in different directions, the Norse took over York. Danes never ruled York but they did live in the Danelaw of Five Boroughs and East Anglia along with Geats.

    There is a myth that surnames and placename borrowing didn't happen till after Christianity and that is patently false! Lerwick is the capital of Hjaltland(Shetland), a name taken from Larvik in Vestfold. My wife's surname is Barnes from near Balmoral in Aberdeenshire, in what was Pictish Scotland. That name is from Vestfold as well. There are a lot of myths about the purity in mass labeling groups as all one tribe and whatnot. My own Yorkshire surname is after a place in the western part of Uppsala's kingdom. There are a few others from Sweden I have seen, but I will not explain them here. I know full well that Ragnar's sons made Jorvik, and I'll have words with any who disagree that Ivar the Boneless and his brothers had no part in it.

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    Post Re: English origins

    That Ing-Anglia-connection is nonsense as well as the statement that there
    were Celts in Northern Germany or Scandinavia (just look at the RGA). Further
    there was no cultural Scandinavian influence or ruler cast within the
    continental Germanic tribes.

    Tacitus states that the Germanic tribes were split into four groups
    which derived from the four sons of Mannus.
    Particulary because Ing-Freyr is the national god of the Danes and Swedes
    it has been supposed to link the Ingvaeones with the north-Germanic group,
    but even that is not clear at all. It´s been proven that the Angles and
    probably also the Wanes and Jutes were of Elb-Germanic origin
    (Nerthus amphyctony, Jastorf culture). The name of the Angles itself
    stems from the landscape in north-eastern SH.
    (see e.g. W.Laur about place in Schleswig-Holstein and the Anglish
    colonization of middle and north England).

    PS The -wik names are more related to the Saxon-Frisian area
    while the Nordish -vig is restricted to bays.

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