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Thread: Magyar-Sumerian Connection? (The Untenability of the Finno-Ugrian Theory)

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    Interesting article wrote by Dr. László Marácz. But, anyway, there are also many resemblances between Daco-Romanian and Sanskrit languages.

    Another interesting article:

    WHEN NO ONE READ, WHO STARTED TO WRITE? [Read the whole article here]
    Dr. Napoleon Săvescu

    ...

    The earliest examples of a written form date back about 7,500 years, to around 5,500 B.C. relating to what today is known as Tartaria tablets.

    ...

    Writing provides a way of extending human memory by imprinting into media-less fickle than the human brain. However, many early philosophers, such as Plato, have branded writing as a detriment to the human intellect. They argued that it makes the brain lazy and decreases the capacity of memory. It is true that many non-writing cultures often pass long poems and prose from generation to generation without any change, and writing cultures can't seem to do that. But writing was a very useful invention for complex and high-population cultures. Writing was used for record keeping to correctly count agricultural products, for keeping the calendar to plant crops at the correct time. Writing was also used for religious purpose (divination and communicating with the supernatural world) and socio-political functions (reinforcing the kingship).

    However, writing isn't an absolute requirement of urban culture. In the past centuries, scientists had used writing as one of the "signs" of civilization, which is an incorrect assumption. The Incas and earlier Andean civilizations never developed a writing system. They, in turn, came up with interesting solutions: they used the quipu (a series of ropes with knots indicating amounts) for record keeping, and complex tapestries as calendars. The Mississippians who built Cahokia didn't seem to have used any kind of record keeping at all, but they built very impressive cities in the American Midwest.

    Among many ancient societies, writing held an extremely special important role. Often writing is so revered that myths and deities were drawn up to explain its divine origin.

    ...

    Whether as a medium to communicate with the gods, or as a magical or supernatural power, writing clearly possessed a divine nature in these ancient cultures. Hence, writing became not only a way to extend memory but also a tool for the elite to justify their rule upon the common, illiterate people.

    The Vinca civilization in Europe was one of the earliest urban societies to emerge in the world, in Southern Charpatian aria more than 7,500 years ago. They developed a writing system whose wedge-shaped strokes would influence the style of scripts in the same geographical area for the next 3000 years.

    It is actually possible to trace the long road of invention of the Vinca writing system starting with the mysterious Tartaria tablets from Transylvania, Dacia, known today as Romania.

    What explanation can be given to the fact that three clay tablets containing Sumerian pictographic writing, made with local clay , but at least 2,500 years older than the oldest tablets found in Mesopotamia , are found in a region where the surrounding cities have Sumerian names , URASTIE , SIMERIA , KUGIR ? Is it impossible that Sumerian groups have migrated as far north as the western present-day Rumania, because at that time they did not exist!

    Today the Tartaria tablets are included in the "Vinca" culture. Being familiar not only with Maria Gimbutas’s remarkable work and Milton McChesney Winn 1973 University of California Los Angeles, but also with Ryan and Pitman reechoes, the conclusion is that these three clay tablets are a pre- Sumerian writing, make sense.
    It is impossible other wise to explain the similarities especially the fact that they contain pictograms absolutely identical with those found in Djemet-Nasr ,and to be dated 2,500 years before the Summer to exist ! Today the problem that the inclusion of just these three tablets in the "Vinca" culture seems unrealistic. Others tablets and a lot of artifacts have been found as part of it, belonging indeed to a proto-European culture, Danubian culture, that is more widespread than it is ascertained today .

    The inscribed artifacts were used both by the common people in domestic rites and by a powerful priestly elite during magical and Religious ceremonies. According to some authors, when celebrating burial rites; e.g. the inscribed Tartaria tablets accompanied the charred bones of an individual in a grave.

    “The reorganization of religion and the invention of a script, see Tartaria tablets were basic elements of the long period of transition

    Experienced by the populations of south-east Europe, of which many aspects are still unknown to us today.”(Harmann, 1997 and Merlini 2002)

    These include not only the Tartaria but also Turdas tablets from Transylvania (studied by N. Vlassa and others), the artifacts of the Vinca cultural area in Serbia (studied, notably, by Shan Winn), and isolated objects from Bulgaria such as the Gradesnica plaque and the much-discussed (and variously interpreted) Karanovo Seal.

    Had south-west neolithic Europe developed its own script 2,500 years before the Sumerians and Egyptians?

    A mother on a throne holding a child in her arms was found in a small village called, Rast, in western Romania which belonged to the Vinca culture. Both figures are covered with strange geometrical and abstract motifs that suggest , accordenly to marija Gimbutas, writing. This is astonishing, because this "Madonna" is over 7000 years old

    In Romania on Ocna Sibiului territory, at "Triguri" - a high terrace of Visa brook, situated near the old salt mines (the present lakes) - has identified one of the largest Neolithic (since 1977). Within the settlement, there were findings of six successive habitation levels, marked by pit houses and surface dwellings. In this context, was discovered a new "cult assemblage", unique until the present day in this part of the ancient world. It contained a statuette and a pedestal bear with certain incised-engraved signs, which, according to their shape and elaborated disposal, seem to represent symbols and ideograms made in a linear manner. The only known analogy is represented by a statuette chiseled in lune spar which was discovered a while ago in the sanctuary no. 21 from the VIIth layer of the Çatal Hüyük settlement, Anatolia (J. Mellaart 1963, fig. 18). According to the C14 method, the layer , in Romania , has been dated between 6200-6500 B.C. (Antonova 1977, p. 21).

    Also in Romania, (Sibiu Museum) a 7500-year-old phallus, was carrying an inscription in the lost proto-European script that has never been deciphered.

    These symbols have been found on many of the artifacts excavated from sites in south-east Europe, in particular from thevVinča culture, in Romania, Greece, Bulgaria, eastern Hungary, Moldova, southern Ukraine and the former Yugoslavia. The artefacts date from between the 7th and 4th millennia BC and those decorated with these symbols are between 8,000 and 6,500 years old.

    Many scholars today consider that the Vinča symbols represent the earliest form of writing ever found, predating ancient Egyptian and Sumerian writing by thousands of years. Since the inscriptions are all short and appear on objects found in burial sites, the language represented is not known and it is highly unlikely they will ever be deciphered.

    Signs are incised on pottery, spindle whorls, figurines and other clay artifacts. The signs are not components of ornamental motifs, although a few examples are abstractions from decorative prototypes.
    A sign may occur as a single, isolated sign on an otherwise unmarked area, or as a component of a sign group.
    This study includes correlations of sign usage according to context - pottery, figurines, spindle whorls, miniature vessels, "tablets" and artifacts of undefined use.

    ...

    In short, the distribution of single signs contradicts the notion that the Vinča signs are merely owner's or maker's marks

    But why should the proto-European farmers have started writing things down? Around 10,000-9000 years ago, some tribes of hunters and gatherers from the west coast of the what is so call today Black Sea , that time a vast freshwater lake, began to use new techniques, and started to produce animal and human figures, pottery, copper and other metal artefacts. They also built palaces, temples and ships and creating weaving techniques. A sensational flood 7,600 years ago in what is today the Black Sea a catastrofic event, changed their history and the history of humanity. The so call black sea peolpe fled , dispersing their language, genes, memory and their writting, not only West and North-West of Europe, but also to Asia and South-East into the Levant, Egypt and Mesopotamia ( see W.Ryan & W.Pitman, Noah’s flood, p.189-194, Touchstone, New York,1998).

    1.One group of farmers called “Linear-band-Keramic”,(LBK), a name derived from their distinctive style of pottery, appeared in Europe within a century an a half after the flood, in mid sixth millennium B.C., rapidly occupying an arc from the Dniester River across northern Europe as far as the Paris basin, displacing the indigenous hunter-gatherers. To a number of experts the spread of the LBK culture along this arc reflects colonization by farming population in such a brief period of time that its beginning and end are at present irresolvable by the radiocarbon dating methods. They brought with them their longhouse building style, never before seen in Europe; these huge timber-frame houses, up to 150 feet in length, were organized into villages founded exclusively on the fertile soil blown across Eurasia during the sky-darkening sandstorm of the last Ice Age. The LBK pottery was decorated almost exclusively with incised patterns grooves and bands of dotted lines forming spirals, waves, concentric rectangles, and other geometric designs, almost all without applied color. Experts specializing in pottery can readily recognize shards from Moldova as if they had been crafted nearby in France. Their explosive movement from east to west up the Dniester and Vistula rivers, and across the Rhineland to the valley of the Seine has only recently been recognized as a mass immigration, almost an invasion of the Europe by the Black Sea people, by LBK people.

    2. Simultaneously with the appearance of the LBK, the Vinca emerged abruptly on the plains of what is knowing today as Romania, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Ungaria, settling on the river terraces. They constructed well-planned permanent villages on leveled ground with parallel rows of houses separated by streets. They plastered their house floors with white clay and build them from split timber planks, instead of mud-brick, in contrast to prior population. Their art and pottery at Vinca were exceptional, in total contrast with the prior civilization.

    3. The Danilo-Havar (DH) people settled along the Adriatic coast of Dalmatia in several of the fertile valleys that cut through the mountains to the sea, strategically located at the seaward end of the Neretva River valley. DH pottery was sophisticated decorated with rich patterns of chevrons, spirals, running waves, nested S’s, and other geometric figures, sometimes painted in black and red. They crafted a now-famous pot decorated with a sailing ship, dated at about 4,000 B.C.

    4. People called Hamangians also seemed to emerge out of nowhere to settle in the region of south-east costal Romania. Two fascinating and quite modern-looking sculptures from early in the fifth millennium B.C. were found together in a grave (Hamangia-Romania), the “Thinker” and his wife. Without the new concept of the Danubian culture, mother of the European civilization and without the new knowledge about the Black Sea flood, it would be difficult to explain the Hamangians sculptures. It was suggested, on the basis of their splendid sculpting, their use of marble, and the presence of spondylus shells, that they were immigrants from the area of Levant or somewhere else in southwest Asia. It is too easy to say that they belonged to the Black Sea fresh water lake people, but it makes sense. Perhaps not so coincidentally, at that time in the middle of the VI-th millennium B.C., Europe began a rapid ascent into what Childe and Gimbutas have called “The Golden Age of Europe”. It has been nothing more then the forced exodus of more advanced people from a grand melting pot in the wake of a Grand Flood that gave the culture of Old Europe its thrust to a “Golden Age”.

    5. The proto Indo- Europeans

    6. The Ubaids people/civilization

    7. Pre-semitic vs. Semitic people

    8. Pre dynastic Egyptians

    All of the above could be groups of fresh water Black Sea people migrating all over as a flood consequence.

    The people fled, never to return.

    Today scientific people explore the exiting archeological , genetic, and linguistic evidence suggesting that the flood rapidly created a human diaspora that spread as far as Western Europe , Center Asia, China, Egypt, and the Persian Gulf. They suggested that the Black Sea People could well have been the mysterious proto-Sumerians who developed the first great civilization in Mesopotamia.

    Read the whole article here.
    Many other articles related to these issues can be found here.

    Quote Originally Posted by VitkiValkyrie View Post
    1. The Magyar runes were in use long before any 'official' middle-ages contact with northern Germanics sailing down the Danube and they resemble Futhark so strongly
    I don't know about the so-called Magyar runes, but I know for sure that on the territory of Moldavia (Eastern Romania) were discovered writings with runes, in many places. I know what I've seen in many museum. For example, Name:  Waters Museum Falticeni SV.jpg
Views: 30
Size:  95.8 KB this is a picture took by me at the "Waters Museum" ("Muzeul Apelor") in Fălticeni, Suceava district, Moldavia region of Romania. Buneşti village is also located in Moldavia region.

    Something similar can be seen at the History Museum of the "Palace of Culture" ("Palatul Culturii") in Iaşi, Moldavia region of Romania, and as far as I remember the writings are also from Moldavia region and they were definitely traced back in time before the middle ages. I don't have a picture of what's there, but I know what I've seen with my eyes.

    Magyars are more related to Transylvania region of Romania, they don't seem to have anything to do with Moldavia region. I am also quite sceptical in what concerns internet sources, I prefer written books and physical proofs at museums, when that's possible, of course. The history we are usually taught in schools, as well as quite popular internet sources, can be strongly influenced by political factors, especially for some specific countries.


    Quote Originally Posted by VitkiValkyrie View Post
    2. The similarity between the names of Odin's ravens (ravens perhaps a kenning of sons?) with Hun and Magyar
    This seems quite interesting...

    Quote Originally Posted by VitkiValkyrie View Post
    3. The Hungarian myths of magical horses are similar to Sleipnir, in that they could cross boundaries between worlds.
    I think there are similar myths in Thraco-Dacian, and Romanian, folklore.

    Quote Originally Posted by VitkiValkyrie View Post
    4. The Hungarian myth of a king buried in a golden treasure in the Danube reminds strongly of the Rhinegold.
    I don't know what myth are you referring to, but in Romania there's a myth that Decebal (Dacian king), just around losing the 105-106 battles with the Romans, buried a huge golden treasure under the flow of the Danube. It's still a mystery where exactly the golden treasure was located, and if it was or not 'discovered' by the Romans, due to some traitors. The Dacians were in Transylvania (here is the small part of the Dacia that was under Roman occupation) long before the Magyars.


    Quote Originally Posted by VitkiValkyrie View Post
    I just can't help wonder if our ancenstors went a-viking down the Danube earlier than expected, and told the Hungarians our stories.
    I doubt it. Anyway, it's still kind of a mystery how it comes that many myths in Europe are so similar to each other. I think that Mircea Eliade put in the same chapter of his Histoire des croyances et des idées religieuses (A History of Religious Ideas) the Norse and the Thraco-Dacian mythologies for some reasons... I guess there are enough similarities between them.
    Die Farben duften frisch und grün... Lieblich haucht der Wind um mich.

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    I really don't know why we (Hungarians) need the Summerians...

    The Summerian (cuneiform script) is the earliest known writing system in the world. BUT it is NOT runic! PLEASE! Not German futhark, and NOT hungarian rovásirás. We are related to the finnugors, and I am proud of it...

    http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnugor_nyelvrokons%C3%A1g

    We can make long sentences in Vogul or Osztják (also finnugor languages).

    Gábor

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    Quote Originally Posted by VitkiValkyrie View Post
    There are many internet sites that shows the Magyar runes (when i find them again, i will post a link or two). They look like younger Futhark! The reasons i think there was perhaps early contact, are 1. The Magyar runes were in use long before any 'official' middle-ages contact with northern Germanics sailing down the Danube and they resemble Futhark so strongly 2. The similarity between the names of Odin's ravens (ravens perhaps a kenning of sons?) with Hun and Magyar 3. The Hungarian myths of magical horses are similar to Sleipnir, in that they could cross boundaries between worlds. 4. The Hungarian myth of a king buried in a golden treasure in the Danube reminds strongly of the Rhinegold. Aargh, when i started writing i thought of many reasons, now i can't remember. Sorry, i will dig up my notes and later post better and more details. I just can't help wonder if our ancenstors went a-viking down the Danube earlier than expected, and told the Hungarians our stories.
    Who says Hungarians aren't actually Germanics under disguise?

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