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Thread: Varg Vikernes and His Musical Performance: Satanism? [Split]

  1. #1
    Senior Member Hyperboreanar's Avatar
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    Varg Vikernes and His Musical Performance: Satanism? [Split]

    [Discussion split from: "Irminsûl" by Varg Vikernes]


    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    but for example he never claimed himself to be satanist, that was a label given to him by the media. He has always stated that he is heathen.
    He got interviewed on a phone ages back and he claimed his goal was ''to be 100% evil'' (which sounds satanic enough for me). The whole phone conversation was saved and published.

    Also, one or two of his early songs were Satanic. However Varg tries very hard to deny this and tries to cover this up by claiming he was using Satanic imagery only in a heathen way or some other rubbish..still this doesn't change the fact he included Satanism or the reference to the devil into his songs.

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    And his so-called astronaut theory is not that stupid as it may seem at first glance. In science they call it the Holographic paradigm (not all of this theory makes actually sense, anyway), one point it makes is that the universe stores information. Life did not originate on our planet, it is very likely that the first life forms, that is bacteries (or even smaller, strings), were carried with comets and other debries of matter to our planet (=> Jotun?). So 'the idea of life', stored in bacteries, were carried through the universe, in a frozen state, only the warm atmosphere waked them up again and they started to evolve and develop.
    What you described is Panspermia. The ancient astronaut theory has nothing to do with Panspermia. Varg in that article claimed aliens or robots made us, not via an evolutionary process. He is claiming robots (who he equates to certain deities in Nordic myth) from a planet directly made us. Furthermore Varg believes the original populations on earth, including Northern Europe were negroid not white people.

    ''the first improved race was called the kin of Trell ("thrall"), and was made up of ugly and stupid black men, with dark hair and wrinkled skin. Óðinn was not satisfied with the result, and Heimdallr had to keep trying, to get a race worthy of Valhalla. After another failed attempt, the kin of Karl ("free men"), he finally succeeded in creating a human race worthy of Valhalla. This was the beautiful kin of Jarl ("earl"). This kin consisted of tall and fair men and women, with fair hair and fair eyes.''
    - Varg Vikernes, Paganism, Part IV

    http://www.burzum.org/eng/library/paganism04.shtml

    Varg doesn't truly believe anything he writes, and all of it is inconsistent. Plus he changes most of his beliefs every year, but when he does this he denies his past beliefs (probably in insecurity or embarrassment).

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    Senior Member velvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar View Post
    He got interviewed on a phone ages back and he claimed his goal was ''to be 100% evil'' (which sounds satanic enough for me). The whole phone conversation was saved and published.

    Also, one or two of his early songs were Satanic. However Varg tries very hard to deny this and tries to cover this up by claiming he was using Satanic imagery only in a heathen way or some other rubbish..still this doesn't change the fact he included Satanism or the reference to the devil into his songs.
    This is quite common amongst Black Metal people, you know. I really cant see, why this would be something to went nuts about it, like you seem to do.
    There is something important to know about the usage of 'satanism' in scandinavia. The satanism part was a must-have in death metal, and when it turned into black metal, it was one part kept in the new form. But for the very most black metallers in scandinavia satanism only means anti-christian. Almost noone really believes in theistic satanism, you can count them with one hand: Infernus (Gorgoroth), Urgehal (as band), Celestial Bloodshed and Mayhem. End. The rest follows the idea of individualism given by philosophical satanism. And even Immortal and Darkthrone use the satanism in pure context of antichristian.
    Back then, when BM was created, you could easily cause the common norwegian a heart attack with using curses like 'for faen', NO norwegian would have used this. It was a simple sociological trick to utterly shock normal people.
    Then it was also connected to LotR's Gorgoroth, where the pure Evil dwells, which is in christian belief the devil. And since it is all about being anti-christian, it is very logic to use satanic imagery.

    And, since it is with Varg a bit special, you should keep in mind, that everything he said in his life was said by a seventeen year old boy who spent the most of his life in prison, many years in solitary confinement. He entered the early phase of black metal when he was 16, with his first Uruk Hai demo in 89, and black metal has that special ability to make time to stop changing. Varg is a complex personality, which you shouldnt only judge upon what he said, due to this circumstances, which makes it all quite complicated.

    "After reading this article You should know if You are a Pagan or not, and if You should use or not use the term to describe Yourself. I know I am a Pagan. Perhaps a corrupted, fraudulent, unreliable and cynical "Loki", but still a Pagan. " (VV, Paganism Part I)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar
    What you described is Panspermia.
    No, it is an theory created in the 1930s, out of an thinking experiment invented by Einstein called Schrödinger's Cat, which was supposed to point out the flaws in the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. The holographic paradigm is only one part of this theory, the most useful part of it today is maybe the M-string theory, which is an axiom about the smallest particles (strings) or astronomical unit, the smallest unit possible and which is the stuff everything in universe is made of.

    It really has nothing to do with panspermia.

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    Senior Member Hyperboreanar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    This is quite common amongst Black Metal people, you know. I really cant see, why this would be something to went nuts about it, like you seem to do.
    Because Satanism is Jewish in all forms.

    Anton Levey the founder of ''Laveyan Satanism'' (autodeism/self-worship) was Jewish, he came from a Jewish family in Chicago, Illinois.

    Levey's book The Satanic Bible also includes a lot of jewish Kabbalah and the whole idea of self-worship is jewish.

    Traditional Satanism is also Jewish. Look throughout history at all the claims of jewish satanic-ritual murders, blood drinking etc by both Christians and Pagans (not just christians).

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    And since it is all about being anti-christian, it is very logic to use satanic imagery..
    The point is that Varg supposedly hates Jews yet he included satanism (which is jewish) in his songs. As i said at the end of my post before, Varg is inconsistant in his claims.

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    He entered the early phase of black metal when he was 16, with his first Uruk Hai demo in 89, and black metal has that special ability to make time to stop changing.
    Uruk Hai, his first music project was Techno. As most know Techno is not a (white) European invention. So, yes Varg as a kid listened to non-white music. And even Black Metal is not european in origin, all metal came from rock which itself was influenced by negro blues and jazz. So this rubbish, that Varg thinks he is 100% Norse by mind and he is going to valhalla is easy to refute.

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    It really has nothing to do with panspermia.
    As i stated you confused the ancient astronaut theory with Panspermia or what you now call ''Holographic paradigm.'' You wrote:

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    And his so-called astronaut theory is not that stupid as it may seem at first glance. In science they call it the Holographic paradigm.
    Look up ancient astronauts, ever read Erik Von Daniken? it is not the same as Pansperima or ''Holographic paradigm.''

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuana_of_Persia View Post
    I very much doubt and don't believe alot of darwinist theory myself. The human race in its whole just "evolved" and descended from a bunch of chimps in Africa? And simply because some specific strain of chimps learned how to make some simple tools. Why the heat in Africa?
    Charles Darwin was in fact Jewish. So anyone who believes in Darwin's theory has been brainwashed.

    Protocols of Zion, 2: 3:

    ''Do not suppose for a moment that these statements are empty words: think carefully of the successes we arranged for Darwinism, Marxism, Nietzsche-ism. To us Jews, at any rate, it should be plain to see what a disintegrating importance these directives have had upon the minds of the GOYIM.''

    Quote Originally Posted by Walterina View Post

    Evolution is a scientific theory about the origin of life on earth and homo erectus in general.

    Nordic myths are the stories we tell each other about ourselves. They gives us meaning, and show us what is good, bad and helpful.

    For instance,

    Could you consider that is is both possible to accept the scientific facts regarding, evolution, genes and so on and also
    Mythology is the earliest form of science. You clearly have overlooked this.

    You look at mythology as if they are something like Aesop's Fables.

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    Senior Member Hrodnand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar View Post
    Because Satanism is Jewish in all forms.

    Anton Levey the founder of ''Laveyan Satanism'' (autodeism/self-worship) was Jewish, he came from a Jewish family in Chicago, Illinois.

    Levey's book The Satanic Bible also includes a lot of jewish Kabbalah and the whole idea of self-worship is jewish.

    Traditional Satanism is also Jewish. Look throughout history at all the claims of jewish satanic-ritual murders, blood drinking etc by both Christians and Pagans (not just christians).


    "Satanism" doesn't only consists in the Laveyan views and it existed long before Lavey in various forms:


    Pre-1960s Satanism

    (Groups or individuals alleged to have practiced Satanism before the appearance of modern Satanism in the 1960s)

    Historically, primarily in Christian European civilization over the centuries, but also in Muslim countries (for example, the Yezidis), some people or groups have been specifically described as worshipping Satan or the Devil, or of being devoted to the work of Satan. The widespread preponderance of these groups in European cultures, is in part connected with the importance and meaning of Satan within Christianity. When viewing the historical development of the phenomenon of Satanism in the list below, it becomes evident that, while the earlier Christian examples may reflect the goals of the Catholic Church to overcome pagans and heretics (or to dispose of opponents, as was the case with Urbain Grandier), the later examples (at least from the time of de Sade onwards), clearly express an open hatred, to the point of sacrilege and blasphemy in some cases, towards Christianity, and the Roman Catholic Church in particular.

    Some of the main personalities and groups that have stood out over the centuries, are:

    In Muslim cultures:

    * Yezidis worshiping Melek Taus (often called Satan worshippers by some sectors of the Muslim religion)

    In Christian cultures:

    (in historical order)

    * Pagans celebrating Pan, Diana, or other Pagan deities (claimed by the Catholic Church to be worshipping the Devil and his minions).

    * Witches, resulting in the Witch trials in Early Modern Europe.

    * Gilles de Rais (1400s, France).

    * Urbain Grandier (1500s, France). Although set up by the Catholic Church, a very famous document, in Latin, of a pact with the Devil which he allegedly wrote, has been preserved.

    * Faust (1500s, Germany). Many instructions, in German and in Latin, for making a pact with the Devil were attributed to him. These were collected and published in Germany in a few of the volumes of Das Kloster (1845-1849).

    * People involved in the Poison affair, such as Catherine Deshayes and Etienne Guibourg (1600s, France). The documentation from their trial is the principal middle age source for information on the Black Mass.

    * The Marquis de Sade (1700s, France), described by some authors as being devoted to Satanism. His works graphically described blasphemy against the Catholic Church, such as an orgy resembling a Black Mass conducted by a Pope in the Vatican (in his novel Juliette ).

    * In 1865 the anti-Vatican Italian poet Giosuè Carducci, published his poem praising Satan as the god of reason and expressing hatred towards Christianity, Inno a Satana ("Hymn to Satan"). (Carducci's poem contains both Italian declinations of Satan: Satana and Satani).

    * Many adherents of the Decadent movement, such as the Polish author Stanisław Przybyszewski, the Belgian artist Félicien Rops, and the French poet Charles Baudelaire (who published his poem, Les Litanies de Satan, "The Litanies of Satan" in 1857) either called themselves Satanists, or created overtly satanist artwork and literature.

    * Some French movements widely described as being Satanist by French writers of the time (Late 1800s to early 1900s). The most well-known description available in English, is the 1891 novel Là-Bas, by Joris-Karl Huysmans. However, there were numerous other well-known personalities in France which were related to the circles Huysmans describes, such as Joseph-Antoine Boullan, Stanislas de Guaita, Henri Antoine Jules-Bois, and Joséphin Péladan, who either wrote about Satanism in France, or were accused of being Satanists themselves.

    * Freemasonry was described as being satanist, also in France at the same time, by the elaborate, completely discredited Taxil hoax. It is true, however, that some personalities popularly associated with Satanism during that time (such as Félicien Rops), were also Freemasons.

    * At least two Satanic (or "Luciferian") sects existed in France in the 1930s. One was led by Maria de Naglowska, and had rituals dedicated to Satan and Lucifer. Another, led by a former Catholic priest, celebrated an inversion of the Latin Mass (a "Luciferian Mass"), which included the phrase "In nomine Domini Dei nostri Satanae Luciferi Excelsi" (a phrase which would re-appear 30 years later in Anton LaVey's Satanic Bible).

    * The Ophite Cultus Satanas ("the Ophite Cult of Satan"), a group founded in Ohio in 1948, said they worshipped the Ophite serpent, which they called Satanas (Satan).
    source: Satanism



    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar View Post
    Uruk Hai, his first music project was Techno. As most know Techno is not a (white) European invention.

    Have you ever listened to the demo? Uruk-Hai is clearly an early form of black-metal and it sounds not like techno at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar View Post
    So, yes Varg as a kid listened to non-white music.
    Proofs?


    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar View Post
    And even Black Metal is not european in origin, all metal came from rock which itself was influenced by negro blues and jazz. So this rubbish, that Varg thinks he is 100% Norse by mind and he is going to valhalla is easy to refute.

    That is probabbly rock-history that you talk about. Metal was never influenced by "negro blues and jazz", let alone mention black metal.


    Black-metal

    During the 1980s, certain thrash metal bands established a prototype for black metal. This so-called First Wave included bands such as Venom, Bathory, Hellhammer and Celtic Frost.[1] A Second Wave emerged in the early 1990s, which consisted primarily of Norwegian bands such as Mayhem, Burzum, Darkthrone, Immortal and Emperor. This scene developed the black metal style into a distinct genre.
    wikipedia:Black Metal
    :Überschöpfung:



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    Senior Member Hyperboreanar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hrodnand View Post
    Proofs?
    A Burzum Story: Part I - The Origin And Meaning

    ''Then in 1989 I met the guys in Old Funeral, who were excellent and serious musicians, and we dropped the whole Uruk-Hai project. The two other Uruk-Hai members were already fighting over a girl, and we had stopped rehearsing, so it was not hard to put Uruk-Hai to rest. I played with Old Funeral for two years, and in that time Old Funeral had turned from a really cool Techno-Thrash band to a boring Death Metal band''

    A Burzum Story: Part II - Euronymous

    ''In fact I went to the techno club to get away from all the new metal people''


    http://www.burzum.org/eng/library/a_..._story01.shtml

    So here in Varg's own words we have him claiming he played in a techno-trash band and that he went to ''techno clubs''. As for Uruk-hai, i am claiming his pre-Burzum band called Uruk-hai was techno, i don't know if this is the same as the demo or release you are talking of.


    That is probabbly rock-history that you talk about. Metal was never influenced by "negro blues and jazz", let alone mention black metal.
    Black Metal definition:

    ''Black Metal: may refer to:

    Black metal music, a sub-genre of Heavy metal music''

    ''Heavy Metal definition:

    Heavy metal may refer to:

    Heavy metal music, a sub-genre of rock music''

    ''Rock music is a loosely defined genre of popular music that entered the mainstream in the mid 1950s. It has its roots in 1940s and 1950s rhythm and blues, country music and other influences. In addition, rock music drew on a number of other musical influences, including folk music, jazz, and classical music''

    Black Metal would not exist if it wasn't for rock and heavy metal, which were both influenced by negro jazz and blues.

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    Senior Member Hrodnand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar View Post
    A Burzum Story: Part I - The Origin And Meaning

    ''Then in 1989 I met the guys in Old Funeral, who were excellent and serious musicians, and we dropped the whole Uruk-Hai project. The two other Uruk-Hai members were already fighting over a girl, and we had stopped rehearsing, so it was not hard to put Uruk-Hai to rest. I played with Old Funeral for two years, and in that time Old Funeral had turned from a really cool Techno-Thrash band to a boring Death Metal band''

    A Burzum Story: Part II - Euronymous

    ''In fact I went to the techno club to get away from all the new metal people''


    http://www.burzum.org/eng/library/a_..._story01.shtml

    So here in Varg's own words we have him claiming he played in a techno-trash band and that he went to ''techno clubs''.

    Once again for the note:

    Then in 1989 I met the guys in Old Funeral, who were excellent and serious musicians, and we dropped the whole Uruk-Hai project. The two other Uruk-Hai members were already fighting over a girl, and we had stopped rehearsing, so it was not hard to put Uruk-Hai to rest. I played with Old Funeral for two years, and in that time Old Funeral had turned from a really cool Techno-Thrash band to a boring Death Metal band. It was not my fault, though, as they had already changed from Techno-Thrash to Death Metal when I joined them. This was the reason I eventually left Old Funeral, as I wanted to play my own type of music, a more original and personal type of music than the music we played in Old Funeral at the time (1989-1991).

    ...

    Instead of starting up the Uruk-Hai project again, I changed the name and decided to do everything myself, although I used some riffs from Uruk-Hai. I did not want to play live and my motives for playing music was very different from the traditional "rock'n'roll" motivation. While playing in Old Funeral I had kept my interest for RPGs and was still heavily inspired by the magic of fantasy. I think I have said that Burzum had an occult concept, but it is more correct to say it was a magical concept, or a concept built on fantasy magic. Everything with Burzum was out-of-this-world, even the name.
    source:http://www.burzum.org/eng/library/a_..._story01.shtml

    1. I don't think there are any riffs in techno music.

    2. Techno music:

    The initial take on techno arose from the melding of Eurocentric synthesizer-based music with various African American styles such as Chicago house, funk, electro, and electric jazz. Added to this was the influence of futuristic and fictional themes [5] that were relevant to life in American late capitalist society—particularly the book The Third Wave by Alvin Toffler.[6][7]Pioneering producer Juan Atkins cites Toffler's phrase "techno rebels" as inspiring him to use the word techno to describe the musical style he helped to create. This unique blend of influences aligns techno with the aesthetic referred to as afrofuturism. To producers such as Derrick May, the transference of spirit from the body to the machine is often a central preoccupation; essentially an expression of technological spirituality
    source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Techno


    Notice the synthesizer-based music. If you have listened to ambiental music you will know that both "techno" and ambiental are synthesizer based. This means that it's highly probable that the term Varg uses for "techno music" is actually ambiental. (Note that ambiental music is almost always present in Varg's musical performance.)
    However there is a difference between ambiental and techno music, even if we take the earlier performances.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar View Post
    As for Uruk-hai, i am claiming his pre-Burzum band called Uruk-hai was techno, i don't know if this is the same as the demo or release you are talking of.
    I suggest you to listen to the demo before you make a statement about Uruk-Hai without formerly listening to it. The release is unofficial and it's from 1989, but you can find it on the web.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar View Post
    Black Metal definition:

    ''Black Metal: may refer to:

    Black metal music, a sub-genre of Heavy metal music''

    ''Heavy Metal definition:

    Heavy metal may refer to:

    Heavy metal music, a sub-genre of rock music''

    ''Rock music is a loosely defined genre of popular music that entered the mainstream in the mid 1950s. It has its roots in 1940s and 1950s rhythm and blues, country music and other influences. In addition, rock music drew on a number of other musical influences, including folk music, jazz, and classical music''

    Black Metal would not exist if it wasn't for rock and heavy metal, which were both influenced by negro jazz and blues.
    I did not want to play live and my motives for playing music was very different from the traditional "rock'n'roll" motivation. While playing in Old Funeral I had kept my interest for RPGs and was still heavily inspired by the magic of fantasy. I think I have said that Burzum had an occult concept, but it is more correct to say it was a magical concept, or a concept built on fantasy magic. Everything with Burzum was out-of-this-world, even the name.
    Whatever you conclude from musical evolution in general his idea was unique and had nothing to do with jazz or blues influenced rock music. He clearly states that and his music is the best proof of this.
    :Überschöpfung:



  7. #7
    Senior Member velvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar
    Because Satanism is Jewish in all forms.
    Satanism is in fact much older than jews or jewish beliefs. Satanism was present in ancient Egypt as well as in ancient Babylonia (which is the source for jewish/christian belief), so actually the jews resembled their belief from satanism, not vise versa.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar
    The point is that Varg supposedly hates Jews yet he included satanism (which is jewish) in his songs. As i said at the end of my post before, Varg is inconsistant in his claims.
    To me it seems that you just hate him.
    And you really have a serious problem with your jew-ophobia
    By the way, what particular songs are you talking about?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar
    Uruk Hai, his first music project was Techno.
    It was dark/drone ambient, and this actually was what black metal, along with Fenris' Isengard (also 89), later was to evolve from.

    On your weird music history I'm not going to comment though, Hrodnand did already.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar
    Look up ancient astronauts, ever read Erik Von Daniken? it is not the same as Pansperima or ''Holographic paradigm.''
    Erich von Daniken? Oh please, you're not serious about that, are you? :

  8. #8
    Senior Member Hyperboreanar's Avatar
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    Amazing how far some people will go to cover up the truth.

    Varg was a Satanist and he included Satanism in his songs.

    You asked which ones, well you don't have to look far...

    His Aske album for example contains the song ''Dominus Sathanas"
    which translates as Master Satan..i'm sure there are a load more but i don't see the point in wasting time looking up his satanic songs on google.

    he also burnt down churches (like a satanist would)...

    "Everybody who has this black hair they call a Satanist and want them to look like that, so I had to have black hair"
    - Varg Vikernes

    http://www.burzum.com/burzum/library...ws/hammer.html

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    Senior Member Hrodnand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar View Post

    His Aske album for example contains the song ''Dominus Sathanas"
    which translates as Master Satan..i'm sure there are a load more but i don't see the point in wasting time looking up his satanic songs on google.
    Velvet already elaborated very well about satanism in black metal so I won't go on about it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar View Post
    he also burnt down churches (like a satanist would)...

    So did the vikings when conquering throughout Europe, yet they still weren't "satanists".
    Burning down churches is just a classic method of conquering.
    :Überschöpfung:



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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar
    You asked which ones, well you don't have to look far...

    His Aske album for example contains the song ''Dominus Sathanas" which translates as Master Satan..i'm sure there are a load more but i don't see the point in wasting time looking up his satanic songs on google.
    Okay, let's see clear: you never listened to a single Burzum song, you dont know what black metal is about, but you assume the song, which has the only text line 'aaarrghhh', is the proof of Varg being a satanist. Cool.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar
    he also burnt down churches (like a satanist would)...
    NO satanist in the world would burn churches. Satanists are not bothered by churches, heathens are, conquerors are, muslims are and anti-christians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperboreanar
    "Everybody who has this black hair they call a Satanist and want them to look like that, so I had to have black hair"
    - Varg Vikernes

    http://www.burzum.com/burzum/library...ws/hammer.html
    Great, you're quoting an interview, which contains also this paragraph:

    Quote Originally Posted by VargVikernes
    None of these things happened before we came into the scene. Every time a church would burn he [Euronymous] would phone around to all of his friends and tell them we had burnt another church, as he really wanted to be part of this church-burning thing.
    We got a bit tired of him, and he was into this satanism and evil and all of this, and for a while we called ourselves Satanists. We were never really Satanists, so why call ourselves that? He didn't want that, because he wanted to be evil and all this bullshit, and we didn't, so it sort of became a disagreement.
    and still you are convinced that he was a satanist?

    I really love that when people quote someone to proof he's a liar and pulling the whole quote totally out of context...

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