Varg Vikernes and His Musical Performance: Satanism? [Split]

[Hrodnand]

In interviews, most musicians more or less deny the occultist aspect but does that make it true? I think not.

Of course they do, why should they preach like priests to the masses?
A person who is interested in it and has a seeker spirit will always find it's way and meaning in the songs, in the lyrics, in the riffs and in the melodies. However, shallow people will never realize that for they can't and don't want to look behind the curtain, where this should be the start to interpret black-metal, to look behind appearances and labels.

Now I'm not here to state to the masses the exact meaning of each black-metal band.
What I claim is that black-metal is a very honest and profound way of expression and art that contains a lot of wisdom. If you don't want to interpret that, than leave it. It has never been for the masses anyway.

I don't see what the big deal is in admitting the obvious?

And what would be that "obvious"?

Varg writes, "Paganism is not dead and we don't even need to reconstruct it. It never really died. It survived underground.

Did the old gods die? No, they didn't, they just "fell asleep". Where is "paganism"/heathenism? it's in us, in our instincts, spirit and blood. It's like a skill that you once learned but never practiced.
That is what he refers to, that people shouldn't start looking and waiting for a messiah or god from another world, but start seeking the roots of "paganism"/heathenism" in their own selfs and in the natural world around them. That's what he means, that "paganism" never died. As long as there is a "Nature" around us and one person on this Earth who takes this seriously "paganism"/heathenism will never die.

He continues: "So what the Judeo-Christians call "Satanism" or "devil worship" is really our own European religion!

Exactly. Christians called and labeled anything that was foreign to them, as Satanism, including heathens and pagans. Do you really think that the victims of the witch hunts were in fact satanist girls and ladies?

"My attraction to this must be seen in the light of this. Also my teenage will to briefly use the term "Satanist" to describe myself must be seen in this light. Yet, I have never been a "Satanist", just like our forefathers never were "Satanists" either. I am and have always been a Pagan. "Satanism" or "devil worship" as described by the Judeo-Christians has simply never existed. The belief in the existence of "Satanism" or "devil worship" is just ignorance and a result of lie-propaganda."

Seems clear to me.

More nonsense. There is no continuity from the old traditions and anyone who claims otherwise is delusional.

The traditions survived with the people, though they were changed more or less with time. There are numerous germanic traditions today that originate back in the heathen period.

Paganism, therefore, has almost nothing in common with the true traditions which were broken.

What "true traditions"?

The trouble is that neopagans have no idea what they're talking about and don't even suspect the existence of a force higher than the subtle realm.

Agreed. However don't forget that neo-paganism is not equal with paganism.

[Hyperboreanar]

I'm not going to explain black metal to you, because black metal is something to explore with the soul, for each individual personally and private.

Whatever you say doesn't change the fact Venom (a satanic band) invented the word ''Black Metal'. All the Black Metal bands you listen to, took their genre name from Venom.

Also we are on a pro-Germanic forum, but i never really understood how metal music (including Black Metal) is Germanic. As established all metal/rock evolved from negro blues and Jazz.

If you want some real (white) Germanic music, listen to classical music.

[Hrodnand]

Whatever you say doesn't change the fact Venom (a satanic band) invented the word ''Black Metal'. All the Black Metal bands you listen to, took their genre name from Venom.

Re-read the posts about black metal in Norway, mate!

Also we are on a pro-Germanic forum, but i never really understood how metal music (including Black Metal) is Germanic. As established all metal/rock evolved from negro blues and Jazz.

Are you trying to point out that we are anti- or un-germanic because we listen to black metal? Please!

If you want some real (white) Germanic music, listen to classical music.

I respect the composers of classical music and I listen to it once in a while, but I listen to black metal more often.
But let me recommend you something too, if you want to write about black metal then take the whole subject profoundly and seriously, instead of stubborn statements that you post over and over again.

[Hyperboreanar]

Are you trying to point out that we are anti- or un-germanic because we listen to black metal? Please.

The whole metal/rock culture originated from non-whites.

Rock n' roll:

Cultural impact

''Alan Freed is credited with first using the phrase "rock and roll" to describe a mix of both "black" and "white" music played for a multi-racial audience. While working as a disc jockey at radio station WJW in Cleveland, he also organized the first rock and roll concert, called "The Moondog Coronation Ball" on March 21, 1952. The event proved a huge drawing card — the first event had to be ended early due to overcrowding. Thereafter, Freed organized many rock and roll shows attended by both whites and blacks, further helping to introduce African-American musical styles to a wider audience.

Rock and roll appeared at a time when racial tensions in the United States were coming to the surface. African Americans were protesting segregation of schools and public facilities. The "separate but equal" doctrine was nominally overturned by the Supreme Court in 1954, and the difficult task of enforcing this new doctrine lay ahead. This new musical form combining elements of white and black music inevitably provoked strong reactions.

After "The Moondog Coronation Ball", the record industry soon understood that there was a white market for black music that was beyond the stylistic boundaries of rhythm and blues. Even the considerable prejudice and racial barriers could do nothing against market forces. Rock and roll was an overnight success in the U.S., making ripples across the Atlantic, and perhaps culminating in 1964 with the British Invasion.

The social effects of rock and roll were worldwide and massive. Far beyond simply a musical style, rock and roll influenced lifestyles, fashion, attitudes, and language. In addition, rock and roll may have helped the cause of the civil rights movement because both African American teens and white American teens enjoyed the music.

It also birthed many other rock influenced styles. Progressive, alternative, punk, and heavy metal are just a few of the genres that sprang forth in the wake of Rock and Roll.''

[Hrodnand]

The whole metal/rock culture originated from non-whites.

Rock n' roll:

Cultural impact

''Alan Freed is credited with first using the phrase "rock and roll" to describe a mix of both "black" and "white" music played for a multi-racial audience. While working as a disc jockey at radio station WJW in Cleveland, he also organized the first rock and roll concert, called "The Moondog Coronation Ball" on March 21, 1952. The event proved a huge drawing card — the first event had to be ended early due to overcrowding. Thereafter, Freed organized many rock and roll shows attended by both whites and blacks, further helping to introduce African-American musical styles to a wider audience.

Rock and roll appeared at a time when racial tensions in the United States were coming to the surface. African Americans were protesting segregation of schools and public facilities. The "separate but equal" doctrine was nominally overturned by the Supreme Court in 1954, and the difficult task of enforcing this new doctrine lay ahead. This new musical form combining elements of white and black music inevitably provoked strong reactions.

After "The Moondog Coronation Ball", the record industry soon understood that there was a white market for black music that was beyond the stylistic boundaries of rhythm and blues. Even the considerable prejudice and racial barriers could do nothing against market forces. Rock and roll was an overnight success in the U.S., making ripples across the Atlantic, and perhaps culminating in 1964 with the British Invasion.

The social effects of rock and roll were worldwide and massive. Far beyond simply a musical style, rock and roll influenced lifestyles, fashion, attitudes, and language. In addition, rock and roll may have helped the cause of the civil rights movement because both African American teens and white American teens enjoyed the music.

It also birthed many other rock influenced styles. Progressive, alternative, punk, and heavy metal are just a few of the genres that sprang forth in the wake of Rock and Roll.''

Varg clearly states that his goal was different than the original rock 'n' roll idea.
Rock 'n' roll has not more to do with black metal than the fact that in both genres the performers use drums and guitars.
The idea and the goal is totally different.
Creating music is not like science or maths where general laws are written and followed. Without listening to a certain genre you can't judge or put a label on it.

[Rik]

Rock n' roll:

Cultural impact

"... "rock and roll" to describe a mix of both "black" and "white" music played for a multi-racial audience.

...many rock and roll shows attended by [both] whites and blacks

...This new musical form combining elements of white and black music.

... there was a white market for black music

... racial barriers could do nothing

...culminating in 1964 with the British Invasion. ![British = White]!

... In addition, rock and roll may have helped the cause of the civil rights movement because both African American teens and white American teens enjoyed the music.

Hyperboreanar,

You try to prove that Rock n' Roll is black with this text. However, if you read more closely instead of seeking for every reference to Africans, it becomes clear that Rock is multiracial in origin. While the definite origin of Rock is African, there is a large European influx.

Also, by the time Heavy Metal developed, Rock was very White and had lost most of its African-American origin in favour of more White music like Country and Folk.

Also, music can't always be pushed in various "cubes".
While band Y clearly has African influence in its Rock music, band X doesn't (despite playing the same genre like band Y).

[velvet]

Whatever you say doesn't change the fact Venom (a satanic band) invented the word ''Black Metal'. All the Black Metal bands you listen to, took their genre name from Venom.

The word black metal were used before that, by Black Sabbath, they just didnt print it on a cover and named an album with it.
Besides, maybe you're interested to know, that Venom DOES NOT WANT TO BE CONNECTED to Black Metal?

Also we are on a pro-Germanic forum, but i never really understood how metal music (including Black Metal) is Germanic. As established all metal/rock evolved from negro blues and Jazz.

If you want some real (white) Germanic music, listen to classical music.

And where did that come from? I'm pretty sure our african ancestors, some hundred thousand years ago, invented music as such, so following your stupid idea of non-white music, we shouldnt listen to music at all, because it reminds us that we're just black scum having turned into white looking people by some genetic tricks of nature, yes?

Maybe you want to listen to some black metal and compare that to rock'n'roll or jazz. Maybe you can realize then that these music styles are completely different.

By the way, even if heavy metal was developed after rock'n'roll, as you imply as a blue print, why are there no black people playing heavy metal? Let alone black metal?

[exit]

At the changing of cycles certain gods "die" and become titans/giants/demons. This is not a Christian propaganda.

There is no unbroken line from the old traditions to pagan/neopagan. No one can claim that they received an initiation from an unbroken chain and all of the occultist scene is nothing more than a counter- or pseudo-initiation.

[Hyperboreanar]

And where did that come from? I'm pretty sure our african ancestors, some hundred thousand years ago, invented music as such, so following your stupid idea of non-white music, we shouldnt listen to music at all, because it reminds us that we're just black scum having turned into white looking people by some genetic tricks of nature, yes?

While i have proved the origin of rock is (partially) negro, you can not prove the ''Out of Africa'' theory or Darwinism. They are theories, not facts.

Maybe you want to listen to some black metal and compare that to rock'n'roll or jazz. Maybe you can realize then that these music styles are completely different.

Someone already made a post above, rock is negro in origin, or atleast partially. So Black Metal's roots are negro as metal evolved from rock.

By the way, even if heavy metal was developed after rock'n'roll, as you imply as a blue print, why are there no black people playing heavy metal? Let alone black metal? Your explanation is nothing but stupid.

http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=665

Black Africans have always been involved with metal projects back since late 1970's with first Heavy Metal bands.

If you look at metal ''culture'' (atleast from the 70's-80's) it was very negro.
Metalheads (like most today) drink, do drugs and go to gigs and jump around like animals. Even your hero Varg Vikernes admits this in his writings, i;m sure you can find the quote where he called metal culture ''niggerish''.


Here is also an article i found:

THE SATANIC ROOTS OF ROCK:

http://www.av1611.org/othpubls/roots.html

Notice how Crowley appears all over the place on early rock cover arts...

[Hrodnand]

While i have proved the origin of rock is (partially) negro, you can not prove the ''Out of Africa'' theory or Darwinism. They are theories, not facts.



Someone already made a post above, rock is negro in origin, or atleast partially. So Black Metal's roots are negro as metal evolved from rock.



http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=665

Black Africans have always been involved with metal projects back since late 1970's with first Heavy Metal bands.

If you look at metal ''culture'' (atleast from the 70's-80's) it was very negro.
Metalheads (like most today) drink, do drugs and go to gigs and jump around like animals. Even your hero Varg Vikernes admits this in his writings, i;m sure you can find the quote where he called metal culture ''niggerish''.


Here is also an article i found:

THE SATANIC ROOTS OF ROCK:

http://www.av1611.org/othpubls/roots.html

Notice how Crowley appears all over the place on early rock cover arts...

We are talking about black-metal in Norway here. Why do you keep posting about rock or heavy metal? This thread was split for a discussion about Varg and his musical performance, whether it is satanic or not, a musical performance that was born in the original Norwegian black-metal scene.

Now you keep going back to other old bands and try to prove them as satanic (along with stating that metal is "negro" in general), bands that had nothing to do with black-metal as a genre that evolved distinctively in Norway, nor did they have any relevant influence on the scene.