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Thread: Separatist/Autonomous Movements in the Germanic Enclaves

  1. #11
    New Member Gemundia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berrocscir View Post
    As an Englishman I'm very interested in this subject. Tell me, does the Alsace group want more autonomy or to rejoin a greater Germany?
    I'm french and from Alsace-Lorraine and I know nobody who wants to become "German" (I mean citizen of the actual German state).

    I'm not a political militant and member of no organization, so this only my personnal view.

    I'm born french. My grand-father was born French, then became "German" during the WW2, and fought to become French again.

    My great grandfather was born German. Then he became French. Then German. Then French again. His village was German at the times. Now it is French.

    My father was born French but spoke Platt (our german dialect) before speaking French. But sure he feels French, and not German.

    In the end these distinctions make NO sense for us. Maybe we are german AND french, maybe we are neither german nor french.

    I speak french and have learned the French history, french literature, french culture in general since I was born. And this is my country, no doubt. But often I feel " at home " when I'm in Germany. And it doesn't mean that I want Alsace-Lorraine to be a part of the German state.

    Sorry for my confusion, but I wanted to show you that this is a very personnal and intimate problem, that one can't caricaturize.

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    Senior Member Lothringen's Avatar
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    Duchy of Lorraine / Lotharii Regnum / Herzogtum Lothringen

    An answer from my father (whose genealogy in Lorraine get up to the XVIe century that means before The Thirty Years War) would resume my thought. I was just after opening the Schengen or Maastricht treatry.

    "Daddy you feel more French or European now ?"
    "I feel Lorrain."

    Little bit of History that I will summarize using Frankish and Latin names (because translation spoils meaning):

    At the death of Clothar (Clodwig son), the frankish territory was splited betwen the 4 remaining son:

    - Chilperic (& Friedgunde) received little Neustria: capital Soisson (where Clodwig "Vase de Soisson" episode happened) as he stole the father treasure
    - Siegbert (& Brouniakhildis/Brünhild) received Austrasia: capital Reims then Metz
    - St Guntram (no wife but later adopted Brünhild son) received Burgundy
    - Charibert received Paris (actual French capital) and Aquitania

    Britanny was still Celtic. Note the analogy between (Guntram/Gunter, Brünhild & Friedgunde / Brynhild/Gudrun, Sieg-bert/Sieg-Fried, Chiperic FrankGold/Alberich & RheinGold)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fileivision_of_Gaul_-_561.jpg

    So we had more or less
    - Flanders
    - Lotharingia
    - Burgundy
    - France

    Later Karl der Gross reunified the Frank-reich and extented it the North-East (Saxon & Alle) , but it got splitted again
    - Francia Occidentalis (France) for Karl der Kahle
    - Germania for Ludwig der Deutsche
    - everything between (Burgundy, Autrasia, bit of Italia) become the "Kindom of Lothar" : Lotharii Regnum Lotharingia.

    Burgundy and Italia will recall their name and Austrasia will be splitted as Niederlothringen and Oberlothringen

    Niederlothringen is better known as Brabant (the one where Lohengrin, Elsa & Henrich der Vogler takes places, or Duchy of Gotfried/Godfrey von Bouillon the Crusader come from)

    Oberlothringen was shorten as Lothringen or Lorraine. Thanks to Joan of Arc episode, the King of France authorized the definitive retoration of to "Comté de Bar" as Lorraine Duchy.


    All that to explain that historically Lorraine neither "belongs" to France or Deutschland.

    This is a similar status as England Normandy and France:
    Just as Duke of Normandy, the King of United Kindom of England, Wales, scotland (in his dreams) and Ireland (keep dreaming) was vassal of the King of France, Duke of Lorraine as Count of Bar (Joan of Arc country) was vassal of King of France, but the western part was a part of the Holy Roman Empire which was NOT only Deutschland but Nederland, Austria, Luxemburg,...

    In the XVII century, hese b@$t@rds known as Louis XIII, XIV, Richelieu & Mazarin, despite they fight protestant in France, they supported them in the Holy Roman Empire against the Kaïser helping Swedish invasion. Duke of Lorraine choose loyalty to his faith (Catholic) and Kaïser rather than the French dirty diplomacy, and get his duchy invaded (as well as some part of the Niederlothringen)

    Meanwhile the Ottoman Empire was reaching the gate of Europe. French attitude was a backstab for Europe and Christianity
    Duke Karl prefered choose abdication rather bleeding to death his people (*) and making sterile fratricides.

    (*) the French attitude after the Last Stand of "La Mothe" would today be considered as a crime of war !
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Mothe-en-Bassigny

    Lorraine lords could have taken their revenge but prefered preventing Ottoman(ie Turco-Muslim) incursion rather than spoiling christian & frankish blood. For a second time Vienna, the Alpen gates were saved, thanks to our noble knights
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna

    As a gift, a Lothingen Lord was granted to marry a Hasburg princess. Because of succession hazards (lord dying with no children) our Duke become Emperor of Austria then King of Hungaria as well.

    Later (1870) Prussia revendicated north Lothringen (Moselle) as REICHland (this mean not autonom like other Lander). Note that King of Bayern (who had some familial relationship with our true Duke) refuse to be at the Ka¨ser proclamation.

    In 1914, France and Deutsches Kaiserreich manage to make Lorrains from the South and North to killing each other !
    At least Kaiserreich was ally with our Duke/Emperor but lost its legitimity when refusing the peace proposition (which involve changing Lorraine as neutral land between Deutschland and France)

    France spoke about democraty defence ? But France:

    - was allied with tsarist Russia
    - north Lorraine was under Napoleon III dictatorship when Prussia took it
    - Lorraine/Lothingen was already a constitutional monarchy (Like Luxembourg) BEFORE french invasion
    - in France no right to vote if you were under 21 (but you can be set to the trenches at 17!) a woman, an "indigene" from the colony is that the "democraty" that justify the slaughtering of the trenches
    Moreover what would have happen if the French have lost ?

    Lorraine would have been fully German ? and so ? We would have been force to learn german (north lorraine native langage is in fact "Platt" nearly like Lëtzebuergesch but NOT german, and in south the Roman Patois was forbidden at the French Revolution)
    Anyway German was mandatory in my college and today I speak much more English in my work than French

    After Verdun slaughter, we could have make "peace for the brave" 1 million dead is enought to fill Wahalla, isn't it.
    No France, England and America had to bring Arabs (Algeria), Blacks (Senegal, Afro American), Indian (British Commonwealth) to kill Germanic people on their soils !

    So how do I fill in my enclave ?

    As somebody whose History was spoiled. Niebelungen Lied is the legend of our old Lords. Whose identity was stolen as a twisted reason for the 1st World War slaughter. Neither Prussian nor Gauls add any legitimity on us that could justify millions of Death.
    For the 2nd World War, III Reich invaded "Gau Westmark" just as Austria.

    Yes to unification but not under anything else than a federation expecially not under the dictatorship of somebody who negociate share of Poland with the Bolcheviks ! We are a Duchy of Crusaders and who did the President choose a Minister of Justice (now "promoted" to European Deputy) Rachida Dati !

    We are supposed to be the same Nation as:

    - Guyana (South America)
    - Antillas (near Cuba)
    - Reunion (Indian Ocean)
    - Corsica (who shows some independentism)
    - Basque (those who help Sarazin to ambush Roland & Charlemagne ?)
    - Britanny (who are allowed to have Celtic Schools)
    France current problem are
    - dryness (here we have flowding)
    - preservation of jungle forest (our Vosgian one is wisely exploited)
    - powerful Navy (Charles de Gaulle carrier, nuclear submarine) where is our Sea
    - fighting in Afghanistan to help Karzaï unificating "his" country

    What's the next step ? helping him having the A-Bomb like Pakistan ? Thanks to our nuclear power plant (you know the one France sold to Irak)

    Hey "Franzosen" the Crusades, they are to be done in Holly Land. Better helping Israël, whom german Jews (yes you can be both whatever Hitler said, just look Tzipi Livni blue eyes and blonde hair) are doing nothing more than finish the Teutonic Order job.

    Sincerly, I resent how France nearly force a kind of multiracial/multicuturalism with its former colonies that, on their side, kick the "Europeans" out after their independance. Those who read French should have a look to
    www.kerkant.com

    More officially we are trying to develop an alternative economic entity
    http://www.sarlorlux.com/
    that more or less correspond to a more "natural" country (german word "Heimat" would be better)
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/Lotharingia-1508.jpg

    Valley of Moselle & Sarre river (including affluent) bordered by the vosgian mountains.


    "France, Terre d'Asile" is a concept from Paris. Why should it be imposed to regions because the democraty give more power to overpopulated Paris than countriside region.

    What would be the sense of all the Frankish sacrifices to stop Mediterranean or Oriental Empire to reach or cross Germania forest

    - Arminius Cherusci, Marsi, Chatti, Sicambri, Chauci at Teutoburger forest
    - Merowig Franks at Catalaunian Plains against Attila
    - Siegbert and Brynhild somewhere against the Avars
    - Karl Martel at Poitiers against the Saraken
    - Roland at Roncevals against the Saraken
    - Karl V at Vienna against the Turks
    Everytime these "common foes" reunificated the german and sometimes with celts, grecs, slavics and latins.
    And know what ? The culture will be lost because a "Francafrique" governement ?

    I suffer each time the French victory of the 1st WW is celebreting because:

    - it has no sense after more than 90 years
    - as I live in the North, the monument to "our children who fell on the field of glory" are in fact the one who fell on the german side (who do not make festival about it) not the french one
    - when you have cousins who kill cousins who should rather fell ashame than pride (just like in US Civil-War)
    - all this bullshit about fight for democraty while France allied with Tsar, imperialist GB, enroled Blacks and Arabs to fight but never to vote, just as 17 year old boys who would vote at 21
    - the opposition to our Duke peace proposition

    In France we have a debate about National Identity, which would be the Flag (why the republican 3 colors and not the frankish "Fleur de Lys" ?) and anthem "Marseillaise". I don't like this anthem and fell pain when hearing it because of this sentence "Qu'un sang impur abreuve nos sillons !"

    This mean "Should a impure blood fill the fields !" What is this "Impure Blood": in the context, the one of the French nobility (sons and daughter of franken lords..) and their armies, mainly from Austrian, Prussian and germanic allies.

    Bad luck, our Austrian Emperor is from Lothringen blood, some of my ancestor were subject of Austrian Empire (and thus may have been Emperor soldiers) and most of my wife ones were from the other side of the Rhein.

    So my children may have much more "impure blood" than good republican Gallo-Roman one.

  3. #13
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    Movements in the Germanic Enclaves

    I wish to give my full support to these movements. I understand at this time there is much urgency in South Tyrol to free itself from Italian domination.

    Elsass (Alsace) is also of interest although I have heard the French are exceptionally ruthless with pro-German organisations there. any further word on this?

    Fritz

    Quote Originally Posted by Dagna View Post
    I am interested in the separatist and/or autonomous movements that exist in Germanic enclaves such as Alsace-Lorraine, Silesia, South Tyrol, and so on. Could someone provide me with some information and/or links about these movements?

  4. #14
    Senior Member Hilderinc's Avatar
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    South Tyrolean Freedom
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Tyrolean_Freedom


    Silesian Autonomy Movement, they wish to see Silesians as independent from either being "Germans" or "Poles"
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesian_Autonomy_Movement

    Party of German-speaking Belgians
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_o...aking_Belgians

    Union for South Tyrol
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_for_South_Tyrol

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