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Thread: The Mediterranean Myth

  1. #41
    Member Awar's Avatar
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    Post Re: The Mediterranean Myth

    The first guy looks totally non-European,
    the second one looks like a north African half-arabian or something.
    The third photo is impossible to classify.
    The fourth guy looks like Rowan Atkinson.
    The fifth guy could pass as native in the Balkans, although his hair and eyes look to dark.
    The sixth guy could pass as a native Brit.

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    Senior Member Vestmannr's Avatar
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    Post Re: The Mediterranean Myth

    Native Brit? Are you kidding? Everyone of those would pass for Arab, Jewish, or Italian here in the States. Nordhammer was spot on, on this one.

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    Post Re: The Mediterranean Myth

    #5 and #6 look Saharid, common among Hamites of the north, and they resemble Pontids among e.g. Serbs who in turn are gracile like the North Atlantid in the moorlands of Western Britain. I wound not mistake them for native Brits though. #5 has an extremely high vault, which look even more out of place with the very dark pigmentation and weak features. #3 and #4 are more typical for Berids in Northern Africa. I do not know what #1 is. The overal impression is the most important.

    Maybe Italian in USA. I think that San Francisco had emigrants from Northern Italy (Tuscany?)? Do you have information about the regions the Italians emigrated from? Italy is too heterogeneous, the regional differences seem greater than many other European countries.


    Quote Originally Posted by Frontiersman
    Native Brit? Are you kidding? Everyone of those would pass for Arab, Jewish, or Italian here in the States. Nordhammer was spot on, on this one.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Vestmannr's Avatar
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    Post Re: The Mediterranean Myth

    "Maybe Italian in USA. I think that San Francisco had emigrants from Northern Italy (Tuscany?)? Do you have information about the regions the Italians emigrated from? Italy is too heterogeneous, the regional differences seem greater than many other European countries."

    That has been part of my contention all along. The USA seems to have gotten very few folk from the North of Italy. Some, as a cousin of mine has Tuscan ancestors. But, by far the Italian-Americans tend to be Sicilian, Calabrian, Amalfian, Romans ... mostly to the South. I've met one fair Italian (a girl I dated), family was from Venice and had a Greek name. However, by far the Italians that settled in most of the areas I've lived or visited seem to be the same types as those in the Mafia. IOW, many who look like Joe Pesci, etc. In many urban areas in the North, there is much intermarriage between American Jews and Italian-Americans: similarity in looks and social/familial structure seem to help that.

    Maybe if there was further information... they are the largest segregated European minority outside of the mainstream American White culture.

  5. #45
    Member Gesta Bellica's Avatar
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    Post Re: The Mediterranean Myth

    Quote Originally Posted by Volksdeutscher
    Sure, why would the upper class migrate when they have it well? People who migrate from Morrocoo tend to be darker than the average population back home. You will find the same situation with Turks in Northern Europe who are almost exclusively from the less Turkish regions of Eastern Turkey. Western Turks that I have seen are much, much blonder than the neighbouring Greeks. One should talk about realities, not what is most popular. In the same way there are definitely North Africans who are much lighter than many Southern Europeans. The tendency is of course there with a larger non-Europid element in Northern Africa. But how much larger is it than say compared with Portugal?

    Ethnic minorities abroad associate (or at least we assume that they represent the majority ethnicity while they often do not) themselves with the majority although they might be of a minority group.
    A lot of my friends have been in Morocco and Tunisie and, after my specific questions, they reported me that people there looks exactly like the immigrants here.
    If this upper class" really exists must be exceptionally exclusiv and numericaly reducted as they don't show themsleves in public places.

    Turkey is another pair of shoes and surely it can't be compared with Morocco as those countries have a different racial background.
    I have met Turkish people that looked definitely "white", can't say the same for Maghrebins.

    "E tutti si scandalizzano quando sentono dire: quel tale tipo di mammifero o di uccello ormai è sparito dalla faccia della terra, non lo vedremo più; è una grave perdita. Certo, si tratta di gravissime perdite.
    Ma non sarebbe forse più grave se sparisse una comunità umana?? --Bruno Salvadori

    Seven pictures of northern European males and seven pictures of northern African males were presented randomly via a computer screen to 82 Italian female undergraduates of the University of Padua, Italy.
    Each picture depicted a full frontal face with a neutral facial expression. Participants were asked to classify each picture as either northern Italian or southern Italian.
    On average, the seven pictures depicting northern Europeans were classified as northern Italians 81% of the time. The seven pictures depicting northern Africans were classified as southern Italians 83%
    of the time.



  6. #46
    Member Gesta Bellica's Avatar
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    Post Re: The Mediterranean Myth

    Quote Originally Posted by Volksdeutscher
    In a map that I have of R. Biasutti Cornwall is more or less Nordid (Razza Nordica 2, aree di maggiore miscela). Northwestern Spain is put as Mediterranea, "aree di maggiore miscela", and the interior except the south (which is more like northwest) is Mediterranea, "territorio di predominio".

    People can correct me here, but in my humble opinion an Anglo-Saxon Mediterranid is contradictory. Some with Mediterranid features may have taken up English speech but that is another issue. Even more strange would be to talk about Anglo-Saxon in most of Wales. See what I mean on English origins:
    http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=11339

    Please show us an example of such a comparison.
    This is Gordon Banks, an old football player..just to stay in the same field



    You can take as examples also Billy Ward and Geezer Butler from Black Sabbath, of course there are many more but surely the average spaniards look more like tham than like an average Moroccan

    "E tutti si scandalizzano quando sentono dire: quel tale tipo di mammifero o di uccello ormai è sparito dalla faccia della terra, non lo vedremo più; è una grave perdita. Certo, si tratta di gravissime perdite.
    Ma non sarebbe forse più grave se sparisse una comunità umana?? --Bruno Salvadori

    Seven pictures of northern European males and seven pictures of northern African males were presented randomly via a computer screen to 82 Italian female undergraduates of the University of Padua, Italy.
    Each picture depicted a full frontal face with a neutral facial expression. Participants were asked to classify each picture as either northern Italian or southern Italian.
    On average, the seven pictures depicting northern Europeans were classified as northern Italians 81% of the time. The seven pictures depicting northern Africans were classified as southern Italians 83%
    of the time.



  7. #47
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    Post Re: The Mediterranean Myth

    Quote Originally Posted by atlanto-med
    Even if 10% of North Africans are mixed, most of them aren't.
    If 10% of North Africans are mixed, North Africa is not as 'Europid as Iberia', as you stated earlier in this thread. I haven't seen much of Northern Africa in real life, but I did visit Egypt. I would be surprised if a mere 10% of the people there were mixed; I'd rather expect the majority of them to have significant admixture, with an average level of 10% non-Caucasoid ancestry in each individual. But then again; I don't think Egypt is representative of North Africa as a whole.

  8. #48
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    Post Re: The Mediterranean Myth

    Quote Originally Posted by Siegfried Augustus
    If 10% of North Africans are mixed, North Africa is not as 'Europid as Iberia', as you stated earlier in this thread. I haven't seen much of Northern Africa in real life, but I did visit Egypt. I would be surprised if a mere 10% of the people there were mixed; I'd rather expect the majority of them to have significant admixture, with an average level of 10% non-Caucasoid ancestry in each individual. But then again; I don't think Egypt is representative of North Africa as a whole.
    Yes, however I think she was working into another direction and minimized the importance of recent admixture to shape the present North Africans as they are.
    Based on Coon, Weinert, her own research and some of my entries, North Africa becomes a potential breeding ground of one branch of the Eurafrican race, and like Barma Grande/Grimaldi on the threshold to sprout off pre-Negrid races and mixed with the Atherians, it leads to the Bushmen on one hand and in Europe to the brachymorphic UP races(unreduced/reduced).
    Between Libya and Zimbabwe populations show traces of Capoid origin or admixture.
    The extinct Strandloopers in South Africa were taller and larger-headed than the actual Bushmen, etc.

    The *mongoloid* eye shape in Magrebids is not unlikely a relict trait from times when an unreduced, still mainly undifferentiated ancestral race to the Capoids co-existed in North Africa with the Eurafricans.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Hidalgo's Avatar
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    Post Re: The Mediterranean Myth

    they are of a similar Mediterranean type, and there is strong genetic evidence, which links them to a North African origin
    I would rather say there is a strong genetic evidence, which separates them from North Africans

    Besides the map Siegfried posted....

    Am J Phys Anthropol. 2003 Oct;122(2):147-61.

    To investigate the diversity of Y chromosomes in the Iberian Peninsula and the North African population of Maghreb, we constructed superhaplotypes on the basis of 10 biallelic markers, 7 microsatellites, and 1 minisatellite located in the nonrecombining portion of the human Y chromosome. The analysis of extremely high MSY1 variability was performed by reducing the MVR-codes to modular structures. Y-STRs and MSY1 data provide information about the relationship between closely related populations such as those of Iberia. Analysis of biallelic markers allowed us to identify 7 of 12 haplogroups defined by those polymorphisms. The haplogroup background showed clear differences between Iberian populations and the North African one.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=12949835

    HG E and its subclades are found in the study below at a frequency of 82.7-87.5% in Moroccan Berber. We can see HG E as kind of "Euroafrican marker".

    The frequency among some european groups i as follows

    Andalusians(2 samples combined) 9.7
    Catalan 6.1
    Hungarian 9.4
    Croatian 8.8
    Ukrainian 8.6
    http://home.ripway.com/2004-1/62802/hapej.pdf

    Why does nobody speaks about a Euroafrican/Saharid element among Croatians, Hungarians or Ukrainians since they have nearly the same or more amount of Euroafrican blood??

    All Mediterranids seem to share at least a partially Eurafrican origin.
    All Europeans share at least a partially Eurafrican origin.(HG E) Ukrainians, Hungarians, Croatians, Poles...

    from the U6 lineages.
    The presence of this NW African mtDNA haplogroup in Iberia can be used as an indicator of NW Africanfemale contribution. Such a contribution seems to be small, since haplogroup U6 is found at very low frequencies: it has been found in 3 of 54 Portuguese and in 2 of 96 Galicians and is absent in Andalusians and in 162 other Iberians (Bertranpetit et al. 1995; Côrte-Real et al. 1996; Pinto et al. 1996; Salas et al. 1998).
    http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJH...82/002582.html

    The NW Africanfemale contribution is even less important than the paternal one. Besides that haplgroup is more common among Galicians than among Berberid/Saharid/Euro-African Andalusians. You just contradict yourself here.

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    Post Re: The Mediterranean Myth

    So the average Spaniard look like a very atypical Brit? Is it something good if Spaniards have faces like him? I do not deny their existence in Britain. I myself sometimes bring up such examples. However, I do not when we are talking about the big picture. Most of Britain is predominantly Nordid, of course more so in the eastern parts of Scotland and England. Spain and NW Africa are Insular, Saharid and Berid. Northern Portugal and NW Spain are supposed to have a small Nordid and North Atlantid (according to Lundman, which is probably the Atlanto-Mediterranid of Coon, e.g. among Basques, alongside a Baskid that got a very low skull, low forehead, cleft chin and a Dinaroid nose) element.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gesta Bellica
    of course there are many more but surely the average spaniards look more like tham than like an average Moroccan
    Last edited by Glenlivet; Wednesday, May 12th, 2004 at 01:51 PM.

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