View Poll Results: Do you support a Greater Netherlands?

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  • I support a political union between Flanders and the Netherlands.

    53 50.96%
  • I support a "Whole Netherlands" including the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, and the French region of Nord-Pas de Calais.

    33 31.73%
  • I support another version of a Greater Netherlands. (Please specify which)

    14 13.46%
  • No.

    4 3.85%
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Thread: The Idea of the Greater Netherlands

  1. #1
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    After Belgium: Will Flanders and the Netherlands Reunite?

    After Belgium: Will Flanders and the Netherlands Reunite?

    By Paul Belien



    Belgium is rapidly unraveling. Following the June 10th Belgian general elections, won by Flemish-secessionist parties, the Belgian parties seem unable to form a government coalition.


    Belgium is a multinational state, the model for the European Union’s efforts to turn Europe into a single multinational state. Belgium is made up of 60% Dutch-speaking, free-market oriented Flemings and 40% French-speaking, predominantly Socialist Walloons. The Belgian Constitution stipulates that the government should consist of 50% Flemings and 50% Walloons. Belgian governments always have to rely on a majority in both Flanders and Wallonia, since major decisions need the support of both parts of the country. In practice this means that 20% of the population (i.e. half of the Walloons) can veto every decision. This has made the Parti Socialiste (PS), the Walloon Socialist Party, the power broker in the country.


    The refusal of the PS to reform the welfare state system has caused growing Flemish frustration, and turned what used to be a linguistic conflict into a dispute about economic and welfare policies. While Flanders pays most of Belgium’s taxes the bulk of the money flows to Wallonia. There a welfare-receiving electorate votes for parties which for over three decades have been blocking any attempts at reforming the collapsing welfare system.


    Since the 1970s Flemish parties have radicalized, demanding larger autonomy over welfare issues. Apart from welfare reform the next Belgian government also has to reach an agreement over Brussels. The city, which is historically Dutch, is a bilingual enclave surrounded by the Halle-Vilvoorde district of the Flemish province of Brabant. At present Brussels-Halle-Vilvoorde (BHV) is one large, single electoral constituency. Flanders wants to assume full autonomy over Halle and Vilvoorde, and demands that these two Flemish towns and the surrounding Flemish villages are split off from bilingual Brussels. This is also being vetoed by the Walloon parties, although four years ago the Constitutional Court of Belgium, with 50% French-speaking judges, ruled that the present situation is unconstitutional and that BHV should be split by July 2007.


    The Belgian politicians are unable to solve the BHV problem, and any new elections are unconstitutional as long as the BHV constituency has not been divided into one bilingual constituency Brussels and one Flemish constituency Halle-Vilvoorde. Politically Belgium is now in a catch-22 situation: The Belgian parties are unable to form a government because they cannot agree about splitting up BHV and new elections cannot be held as long as BHV has not been split up.


    Last week, Prof. Em. Robert Senelle, one of Belgium’s most prominent constitutionalists, a Flemish Socialist and formerly a teacher of the Belgian Crown Prince, advised the Flemings to annul the Belgian Constitution and solemnly declare Flemish sovereignty. Following this advice Filip Dewinter, the leader of the secessionist Vlaams Belang party, the largest party in the Flemish Regional Parliament, called upon the Flemish Parliament to convene and declare Flanders an independent country.


    Yesterday another Flemish constitutionalist, Prof. Paul Van Orshoven said that “intelligent people” should consider a Flemish secession from Belgium. “Because the situation cannot go on where a minority denies the majority its legitimate and democratic aspirations.” Prof. Van Orshoven said that if Flanders secedes this obviously violates the Belgian Constitution, which requires that the Walloons approve of such a decision. He referred, however, to the historical precedent of the Tennis Court Oath. The Tennis Court Oath refers to 20 June 1789, when the representatives of France’s third estate [the bourgeoisie] declared themselves to be the true representatives of the nation. “In the spirit of the Tennis Court Oath it is permitted that, even if it violates the Belgian constitutional rules, a simple majority of the Dutch-speakers in the Belgian Chamber of Representatives and the Senate declare to secede.”


    Apart from the media in Belgium and the neighbouring Netherlands, the international papers and broadcasters have hardly reported about the disintegration of the EU’s host country. On Tuesday a survey of the Dutch [Netherlandish] television network RTL4 showed that 77% of the inhabitants of the Netherlands are in favour of the Netherlands and Flanders merging into one country.


    In Belgium, an internet poll of Flanders’ largest newspaper, Het Laatste Nieuws, showed 50.9% in favour of reuniting Flanders and the Netherlands. The Flemish provinces were part of the Netherlands until 1831, when the international powers established the Kingdom of Belgium.



    source

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    Senior Member Aragorn's Avatar
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    The Idea of the Greater Netherlands

    Greater Netherlands.

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    Interesting idea.. allthough the collapse of Belgium would mean a catastrophy for Europe, the Province of Utrecht seems to have been absorbed by Holland (bastard Hollanders (:p)) and this map does not include South Flanders, the area that was nicked from us by the Frog... err French

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    Senior Member Aragorn's Avatar
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    Lets be realistic. Lets first unite with Flanders. And make sure whole of Flanders will be get rid of Francophonian elements: Brussels, Voeren, Vlaamse rand, etc.

    To gain back South-Flanders and in what extent is at this point unsignificant.

    Dunkirk yes. rijssel (Lille), probably. What about Kales (Calais), Boonen (Boulogne), Abbegem (Abbéville), Atrecht (Arras)? Include of all this means a large Francophone element.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wittekind View Post
    Lets be realistic. Lets first unite with Flanders. And make sure whole of Flanders will be get rid of Francophonian elements: Brussels, Voeren, Vlaamse rand, etc.

    To gain back South-Flanders and in what extent is at this point unsignificant.

    Dunkirk yes. rijssel (Lille), probably. What about Kales (Calais), Boonen (Boulogne), Abbegem (Abbéville), Atrecht (Arras)? Include of all this means a large Francophone element.
    I think that we should have Voeren, Brussels and the Vlaamse Rand since I have no problem with Dutchifying these areas, except for Brussels (which I believe would benefit from almost even numbers Dutch- and Frenchspeakers and from it's bi-lingual and international nature- that doesn't mean that I want the majority of the guest workers to stay.. I want them out) Brussels might actually benefit from a even Dutch/French-speaking population with other EU citizens moving in (civil servants for the EU institutions and other foreign companies): it would show the world that Brussels is the capital of the EU.
    For South Flanders there should be a policy of slow Dutchification, but it would take no less then 100, 150 years to have it Dutchified (or Flemmified) again.

    But still I believe that the people should be returned to their original customs and dialects (with some (corrupted) French words if they would deem that neccesary)

    We should actually try to remember that the Wallonians are as Dutch as we are: it was the wish of our brave forefathers to unite all of the Netherlands in this war against the tyranny of Spain...
    So handing them over to the French wouldn't exactly be a good idea- since large area's are originally Dutch-speaking.. so perhaps some of these area's could be slowly Dutchified. And if that can't be done- we should be content with those Wallonian and South Flanders' areas that can be taken into our federation.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Imperator X's Avatar
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    For South Flanders there should be a policy of slow Dutchification, but it would take no less then 100, 150 years to have it Dutchified (or Flemmified) again.
    I honestly don't think it practical to wait that long. Is the union of Flemish Belgium and the Netherlands even possible? I think this all romantic hypothesis.
    SVMDEVSSVMCAESARSVMCAELVMETINFERNVM

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    Maybe, yes.

    But if so being pessimistic, where the hell are we fighting for then?:

    There is always hope, and one should never give up his ideals and dreams.

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    Greater Netherlands

    I believe there are some adepts of unification between Netherlands and Germany. However, there is another direction:

    Greater Netherlands (Dutch: Groot-Nederland) is a term used to describe parts or all of the Low Countries that certain political groups aspire to unite into a single polity. "Greater Netherlandsism" (Grootneerlandisme) is a term used to describe these aspirations.
    One scenario includes a (re)unification of the Netherlands and Flanders, which can be thought of as a possible unitary state, a federation, or a confederation. Because this scenario would unite the Dutch people, the term Dietsland ("Dutchland'") is used to describe the unification. It uses the word "Diets," an archaic term for "Dutch." Another scenario, called "Whole-Netherlands" (Heel-Nederland) involves combining all the Low Countries as a single entity, the "Netherlands." Yet another form is contemporary Orangism which seeks the restoration of the Dutch royal family (House of Orange-Nassau) to the Low Countries.


    Most common view of the Greater Netherlands: A political union between Flanders and the Netherlands.


    Another view of Greater Netherlands: "Whole Netherlands" including the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, and the French region of Nord-Pas de Calais.


    The historical Prince's Flag is sometimes used by Whole Netherlands groups

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Netherlands

    Do you support a Greater Netherlands?


    Die Sonne scheint noch.

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    I think the idea of uniting Flandern with the Netherlands would be a good thing. I´m not so sure about the other option: A large part of Belgium is French by language and culture, and Belgium has even a small German-speaking part (St. Vith and Eupen). The same counts for Luxemburg. I doubt that there would be a majority in these regions in favour of an unity with the Netherlands.

    "Judge of your natural character by what you do in your dreams" - Ralph Waldo Emerson

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    I support Flemish independence, and only if the Dutch adopt the Flemish attitude of sovereignty against aliens would I support a Greater Netherlands. As it is now, I don't think there's a need to pull Flanders into the Dutch sewer.

    Whatever happens to the two countries, they should strictly speak Dutch, so any French involvement like Walloonia is undesirable.
    Leave behind the weak, we must take the strong in hand:
    Together are the wicked violent forces in command

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