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Thread: Alsace-Lorraine — an Enclave of Ethnic Germans in France

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodoric View Post
    It's hard for me to write in english, i prefer deutsch, but i'll try to bring some more informations about my country. For exemple about it's flag (which is red and white) or about it's linguage (elsässisch).

    This germanic spirit is the reason why i've come to this forum. Maybe later could there be an Elsässisches Division in the forum where people from here could meet and share points of view.

    Grüsse !
    If you're more comfortable in German, there's a German section where you could write: http://forums.skadi.net/forumdisplay.php?f=376

    I'd be glad to read more informations about the German heritage in your area.

  2. #12
    Member Theodoric's Avatar
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    For sure there are other zones where we can find germanic people or people with a germanic preponderance, but they are not the same tribes as in Elsass i guess, so there are some differences with the names, languages, morphology etc.

    Here is my little text about the Alsatian Flag. I tried to make it simple. Hope there will not be to many mystakes.
    I think it's better to let it here than in the deutsch section because it could centralise informations about Elsass in this thread.

    Rot un Wiss, elsässisches Fahne

    Actualy, Alsace's flag, as a french region, is this one :


    This flag is meant to represent both the two departments of the region : Haut-Rhin and Bas-Rhin.

    But historicaly, the real flag is this one, the Rot un Wiss (red and white) :


    The red remember us of the Blutfahne which is the flag of Karl der Gross. Indeed, Elsass was in Karl's Empire and then in the Holy Roman Germanic Empire.

    But in order to know the roots of our flag, we have to look at the different families and cities arms. Those arms started to apear in the XIIth century.
    Looking at the arms, we can notice that the red or/and the white are present on quite all of them as for exemple Habsburg, Ochsenstein, Lichtenber, Salm families.. and the cities of Strassburg, Mülhausen, Schlettstadt, Ensisheim etc..

    The presence of those colors can show the belonging of Elsass to the Empire. We often can see this association of colors in the region who stand at the borders of the Empire as for exemple Savoie, Switzerland, Pomern.

    The red and white were used since the Midle Age as the symbol of the city of Strassburg. We can see it, as the first representation, in a document made in 1340 : the "Zürcher Wappenrolle".

    Even if the colours were used by most of the cities and families, there was at this time (Midle Age) no official flag for Elsass simply because Elsass did not exist as a reign or a state. There were several territories controlled by the Empire, local Lords or by religious.

    In 1789, the revolutionary troops destroyed most of the flags and arms in Elsass replacing them by the parisian flag (blue and red) and then by the french flag (blue white red : white was the color of the King). The symbols of the old regime were banned and we had to wait until 1870 to see the colours again.
    In 1870 Elsass-Lothringen was born as a real political entity : the Reichsland Elsass-Lothringen.

    Since this time, Elsass take conscience of it's identity and socio-ethnical specificities. The actual Rot un Wiss is used by the city of Strassburg and soon by the population of all Elsass ! At this time, the flags were easier to build or to buy because the tissue was cheeper.
    Those colors were not proclamated by the autority or by a specific group of persons but by the people itself!

    There were some problems with the Reich because there was an official flag for the administration of the Land : the black, white, red with the imperial eagle on the midle.


    The 25 June of 1912, the alsatian parlement chose the Rot un Wiss as the official flag for entire Elsass, with a yellow Lothringen Kreuz in the upper side :


    During the two world wars both France and Germany tried to forbid the use of that flag.

    This flag is still used nowadays by political groups and associations who want to promote the alsatian identity and traditions but is not recognised by the French Republic.
    Last edited by Sigurd; Tuesday, July 21st, 2009 at 05:49 PM. Reason: Fixed broken tag. :-)

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatest View Post
    I wonder what they consider themselves to be? Obviously most would proclaim to be French, in order to avoid alienation and hostility from their fellow countrymen. But if Germany reclaimed the region, how many would stay and change their identity to German? That's the real question
    Hi,

    I am an ethnic German/French living in Alsace, and i can try to answer your question ; Alsatians are not claiming to be French or German anymore. We have been so many times part of those two countries that we can not say to whom we belong. We consider ourselves as Alsatians, with Alsatian language (almost german though). A lot of Alsatians prefer the political sytem in Germany. They like the federalism, the way the country is divided in Länders. Indeed, the Federalism is for Alsatians the best solution. France is centralized on Paris, and we are willing to be independant from Parisian ministers. We are in fact pretty much regionalists and identitarians.

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    So, while many Germans will speak French 200 km inside Germany, almost nobody can speak German even in the first villages past the border into France.
    That's absolutely wrong, I live in Sarreguemines (Saargemünd in german), which is exactly at the French/German border (the border is in the center of the city if you can imagine). There are permanent exchanges of populations : germans put their children in the nearest french schools, frenches go shopping in Saarbrücken or even work in Germany, and so on.

    I've known this since I'm a child. And ALMOST all the french people at the border speak a little german, or even Platt (or local dialect which in fact is older than the actual German language), and they take care to speak german as good as they can when they go to Germany. On the contrary, I have never, never heard a German speak French, when coming to France. Even German living for years in France, have never made the effort to learn our language - which is an imperialist attitude, sorry.

    Whatever you can say, we are a germanic population, yes ; we are not GERMAN.

  5. #15
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    Well, it's great if that's the case over there I'm from the Western area and over there very few people under 75 still actually speak Platt and certainly not in the public space. Probably because we're at the end of the spike of the German-speaking zone, but also because of the intra-european immigration problem and the racio-cultural dilution that I've described above.

    You're right to state that the people of Alsace-Lorraine (actually that's Alsace-Moselle) are ethnically Germanic, yet not ethnic Germans like the Volga Germans for example. A funny fact about this is that the inhabitants most often bear German surnames although they're not Germans, while the ethnic German minorities in the East often bear Slavic-sounding surnames. The area is culturally and racially a buffer zone between France and Germany, which of course derives from its geography.

    But what is wrong is the way that our ethnic identity has been dealt with by the French state in a totalitarian way, denying the region's specificity, forbidding the ancestral language and submitting the population to a sterile "all-French" state education.



    We kept some German legislative and administrative laws though, dating from the Second German Empire, whenever they were more advantageous than their French equivalent. Like the 26 December holiday, corporations instead of trade unions, separate Social Security system (from the 1911 Reichsversicherungsordnung), different bankruptcy laws, different court system, hunting regulations, family-owned alcohol production authorizations, etc. The trains also drive on the right side while in France it's normally on the left side. They're also more often on time than on the inside of the country BTW .

    As you said here, the personal positions of everyone depend on their spiritual affinities and how they feel about the whole thing. As a racialist and a National Socialist supporter I would certainly favor the integration with the German state, even though there is only a remote chance for this to ever happen again. But my personal loyalty goes to Germany and any other Germanic countries and populations rather than to France and French-speaking populations.

    The French and French-speaking mindset is an open door to multiculturalism and multiracialism. The French are race defilers at heart; they have no ethnic consciousness at all. This has been observed in Louisiana (the French mixed a lot with the natives) and in all the other colonies too. Even in Belgium and in Switzerland we can notice that the leftist vote on the map matches with the French-speaking areas, while the conservative votes generally matches the German or Flemish-speaking areas (verified again in the last Swiss vote to ban minarets this week).

    The French are disorganized, can't get anything done, when they do it it's sloppy at best, they're stupidly arrogant, etc. At the same time they're mostly cowards intellectually, socially and otherwise. This was not always so (no need to oppose me the great Frenchmen of the past), but France is one of those countries that has degraded a lot sub-racially over the centuries, just like like Portugal, Greece or Iran before it. The French identity of today has little to do with the one of 3 or 5 centuries earlier.

    This is very well described by Alfred Rosenberg in The Myth of the XXth Century. France’s heyday was during the High Middle Ages; then the mostly Nordic Protestants left (XVIth century), then the Frankish aristocracy was decimated (French Revolution) to the benefit of the Jews and the merchant class, then some of the most adventurous left for the Americas in the XIXth century, then it was bled to death by WWI. Since the beginning of the XXth century it has been drug further down by the admixture of Polish, Spanish, Portuguese and Italians labourers, all the worst their country had to offer of course.

    Did I mention the Jews who flocked in there in mass during the XXth century because this was already known as “human-rights-land”? They came not only from Eastern Europe, fleeing the pogroms, but also from the newly independent colonies of North Africa. Those were the Sephardic, for a change. France now hosts the third Jewish community after The USA and Israel. They don’t even bother to hide anymore: just look at the Jewish clique who is squatting the Elysee palace; the mutt French population is apathetic and just doesn't notice anything. It's already too late for them, like for the frog in the pan of boiling water; they’re ready for the last step, which is islamization. Again, read Rosenberg, he says it all; he considered France as a lost cause, already in the 1930’s and Germany soon to follow.

    Then finally, millions of North Africans, Sub-Saharan Africans and anything that could walk this earth has been pouring in since the 70’s. Those non-whites are living off the taxpayer’s money of the already degenerated and weakened indigenous White population in what is the world's most spendthrift welfare state. France is basically exiting world’s history by the toilet bowl…

    Gemundia, I know we've all been through French education, lifestyle etc but I can't see what you find attractive about being French; you may be loyal to France but it hasn't been loyal or grateful to you and it will never be. Like the local muds say: "F*** France before it f***s you." I also admire the Basques for their tenacity against the French problem . Either way, this is not "my country" and I mostly don’t care about what happens to it.

    But since we're not Germans either and that there is no local ethnic consciousness strong enough like they have in Flanders for instance, there is nothing to do or to fight for locally. I've thus switched my loyalties to the international Germanic community, in an American way. I’m not a local nationalist; I think of myself as a Germanic nomad. With the ongoing destruction of local ethnic identities, more and more people are going to feel that way. It doesn’t matter if we are not bonded by land anymore; we will always be bonded by blood. The whole thing is how to popularize this concept and get organized.

    [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]Of course the bulk of the local Alsace-Moselle population doesn't care or doesn’t even know about all this. The Electronic Jew tells them what to think. The masses can and should only be manipulated; next time the Germans should guarantee a 99-years tax-free status to the area (instead of forced military draft ) so the locals would finally have a strong incentive to be Germanized. That's how you get things done.



    "Done with the Welsch jumble!" (1940)

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    Ahnenerbe, I agree with most of what you said, but I don't think the French mindset is an open door to multicultaralism, I think post 68 Europe's mindset is an open door to multicultaralism, not specifically the French. Arthur the Gobineau, a Frenchman, is the inspiration of the aryan racialist theory. Also, you talked about how french people mixed a lot in their colonies. Well in many former Dutch and English colonies, race mixing was quite widespread as well. The French Antilles have the "békés" which are white folks descendant from the first colonials who have stayed seperated from the coloured until today. The békés who happen to mix with the coloured are shunned by the rest of the community, even today. Québec is also much whiter than the rest of Canada for example. Last but not least, France's far-right, although not as extreme as the BNP and the NPD, has some of the best scores of a far-right party in Europe.

    I agree though that the French mindset has seen decay compared to the glorious days of the past. I too attach this partly to the French Revolution which decimated the french aristocracy.. but only partly as one who is fascinated by the Napoleonic era like me can notice how much the notion of honor and being a gentleman was widespread during the period, although most soldiers and officers at the time weren't descendants of the frankish aristocracy. The huge number of deaths among the northern French during WW1 is indeed another cause in my opinion. But for me the biggest cause for this is the worldwide feeling of self-loathing present in ALL western european countries. Actually, the least self-loathing countries in western europe today are the southern ones, Spain and Italy mostly. The Germanic countries like England and Germany are the same as France in my opinion (only France had a huge colonial Empire in Africa, hence the immigrants, more numerous than in England because England is lucky enough to be an Island, more difficult to immigrate to).

    I'm nonetheless a French nationalist, I feel pride when reading about our glorious military history which is equalled in Europe only by the English. I often wish I had lived in the glory days of France (from Clovis to WW1, nearly 1500 years of glory that is). I also know that France has brought much culturally and technologically to the greatness of the white race in general. That is undeniable.

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