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Thread: Were All Indo-European Peoples Nordid/Nordic?

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    Were All Indo-European Peoples Nordid/Nordic?

    I want to start off by saying I really don't know much about anthropology or the White sub-races. I always kind of figured the only White sub-races were Old Europeans and Indo-Europeans. However, I see now that there are a lot of varying beliefs on sub-race, and I want to learn more about them.
    So yeah, forgive me if I sound ignorant in anything I'm asking.

    Anywho, I've read from many sources that all the Indo-European tribes were Nordic. At first I kind of laughed at this idea, since I figured there's no way the Latins and Hellenes had blond hair and blue eyes. So I did some research, and it turns out most of the original Roman emperors had Northern features. After a while of reading about Rome and Nordic theory, I was able to accept that the original Latins were Nordic.

    Now the Hellenes, that's kind of a stretch. I've read the Iliad, and nearly all of the heroes are said to be blond. Same goes for many other Greeks heroes and gods. The one thing that stops be from believing the Hellenes were Nordic, is that EVERY ancient depiction I've seen of Helen of Troy shows her to have dark hair. Now don't get me wrong, I know that the Indo-Europeans were a minority in Greece, the majority were Pelasgians. But still, if the Indo-European Hellenes were ruling, and they wrote the Iliad, shouldn't the most beautiful woman of all time be created with blond hair, typical of Nordics?

    Also, there's the question of the first wave of Greeks, before the Dorians. There's really no art or literature showing a Nordic presence in Greece before Classical Greece. So were the first Hellenes to invade Greece also Nordic?


    Also, what about the Baltid race? If Northern Europe was originally inhabited by Nordics, then when the Germans, Celts, Slavs, and Balts poured in during the Indo-European invasions, how was a separate Baltic sub-race created? Were the natives of the Baltic region not originally Nordic like the rest of Northern Europe?

    And finally, is there any evidence that the Hittites and Persians were originally Nordic?

    Sorry for the long post. As you can see, I'm a very curious fellow.

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    Senior Member rainman's Avatar
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    If by "Nordic" you mean basically the same as a modern Northern European then yes. This would include people with darker hair though. Modern Greeks and Italians are not the original founders of the ancient civilizations. The classical Greeks were their own subgroup but most of the ruling families would have blended in well with modern Germans. The founders of Rome were the same, but they mixed with Etruscans who have some Semetic origins pretty early on. Hittitites I've heard conflicting statements about their Aryan-ness. Iran, Iraq, and India all decend from a common Aryan civilization though the blood has been heavily mixed. In most cases the blood has been mixed. Only in modern Europeans of say Norwegian or North German or perhaps English decent has the mixing been minimal. Even the French have some semetic mixing. The Spanish have their own historical mixing, so does East Europe.

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    Awesome Topic nothing stupid about the questions.
    I have the same questions myself.
    We'll have to wait till someone like Agrippa, Jäger or someone to give some answers.

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    It all depends on whether you believe an Indo-European ethno-genesis took place in the Baltic, and spread therefrom, or whether it took place in the Caucasus.

    If it took place in the caucasus, then evidently, the idea of a Neolithic group which spread throughout the lands would almost have to be associated with Indo-Europeans, who would then racially appear to be more along the Atlantid/Nordid/Pontid spectrum.

    If it took place in the baltic, then one could assume that its appearance perhaps predated the arrival of a different race, which brought agriculture. Then, the Upper-Paleolithic survivors of Cro-Magnid definition would appear to be those from whom Indo-Europeans sprang, with Nordids/Atlantids/Pontids being an outside influence.

    Depigmentation, on the other hand is a different matter altogether. It is neither exclusive to the Neolithic subraces, nor the Cro-Magnid subraces, so one'd have to be careful in linking either to this phenomenon, especially when this phenomenon is not only largely unexplained, but is also not uniform across the North.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    It all depends on whether you believe an Indo-European ethno-genesis took place in the Baltic, and spread therefrom, or whether it took place in the Caucasus.

    If it took place in the caucasus, then evidently, the idea of a Neolithic group which spread throughout the lands would almost have to be associated with Indo-Europeans, who would then racially appear to be more along the Atlantid/Nordid/Pontid spectrum.

    If it took place in the baltic, then one could assume that its appearance perhaps predated the arrival of a different race, which brought agriculture. Then, the Upper-Paleolithic survivors of Cro-Magnid definition would appear to be those from whom Indo-Europeans sprang, with Nordids/Atlantids/Pontids being an outside influence.

    Depigmentation, on the other hand is a different matter altogether. It is neither exclusive to the Neolithic subraces, nor the Cro-Magnid subraces, so one'd have to be careful in linking either to this phenomenon, especially when this phenomenon is not only largely unexplained, but is also not uniform across the North.
    I'll consider the latter theory.

    Wasn't the core Neolithic subrace coined the "Corded" by Agrippa or a specific text, as the base aurignacid in which those subraces, Nordid, Atlantid, Pontid, Iranid, etc. later developed into?

    But I also remember it being mentioned that even considering the caucasian theory the various Indo-European tribes that moved out and settled wouldn't of all been aurignacid sub-racially, that various cro-magnid strains would also have been present.

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    The answer is no. Obviously only a small fraction of modern Indo-European speakers are phenotypically Nordic.

    If you are talking about the Proto Indo-Europeans the answer is also more than likely no. At least they would not have been as light pigmented as modern Scandinavians or North Germans, nor would they more than likely had those chisled Teutonic feautures.

    The reason why some people think they were Nordic looking is because in the 19th and very early 20th century the original home of the proto Indo-Europeans was thought to be northern Europe (Scandinavia). Today that notion is not taken seriously anywhere because there is simply no evidence for it.

    Today the dominant hypothesis and the one with the most evidence backing it up is the Kurgan hypothesis which places the Indo European homeland in Southern Russia around the black sea.

    4500-2500 BC

    2500-1800 BC

    1800-1200 BC



    scientists are not in agreement about the location of the Indo-Europeans' homeland, much less their original phenotype, definitive records of which are lacking.
    Last edited by Sir Infamous; Thursday, April 30th, 2009 at 03:13 PM. Reason: more Info

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    Depigmentation, on the other hand is a different matter altogether. It is neither exclusive to the Neolithic subraces, nor the Cro-Magnid subraces, so one'd have to be careful in linking either to this phenomenon, especially when this phenomenon is not only largely unexplained, but is also not uniform across the North.
    Concerning depigmenation, I would think this phenomenon would have occured prior to the arrival of Homo-sapien on the world scene. Culture replaced physical adaptation to the environment. So one would expect any major physical adaptation, mutations that ended up in entire population, to have occurred before culture. With culture there is no survival necessity for physical adaptation. Any mutations that occurred thereafter would just diversify our gene pool, but not find its way into every individual within that gene pool. Mutations that do that are ones that are a survival imperative, but as I said earlier, post-culture there are no imperative physical adaptations.
    Due to this chain of reasoning I have come to the thought that depigmentation occurred pre-homo-sapien, probably in one of the branches of Homo-Erectus or Homo-Habilis, post Africa migration.

    This is my first post here in Skadi forum. So forgive me if my early posts are not in concert with the forum yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rainman View Post
    If by "Nordic" you mean basically the same as a modern Northern European then yes. This would include people with darker hair though. Modern Greeks and Italians are not the original founders of the ancient civilizations. The classical Greeks were their own subgroup but most of the ruling families would have blended in well with modern Germans. The founders of Rome were the same, but they mixed with Etruscans who have some Semetic origins pretty early on. Hittitites I've heard conflicting statements about their Aryan-ness. Iran, Iraq, and India all decend from a common Aryan civilization though the blood has been heavily mixed. In most cases the blood has been mixed. Only in modern Europeans of say Norwegian or North German or perhaps English decent has the mixing been minimal. Even the French have some semetic mixing. The Spanish have their own historical mixing, so does East Europe.

    French had once been the academic language of Europe and consequently this made is fairly easy for the French to absorb foreign peoples.

    Frederick I of Prussia also granted leniency for political and religious refugees, even accepting a number of Scotsman and Bohemians.

    Napoleon made Jews full citizens and encouraged intermarriage as a way of stamping out the Jewish ways. (Well I supposed it did work... Considering that most ''Jews'' today are oddly enough always Polish/Russian. What ever happened to France, once known for having the largest Jewish population in Europe, to having absolutely none at all? Seems almost all Jews today had parents or grandparents born in Poland or Russia)


    The United States saw it fairly easy for Jews to become Whites. I.E. the Kohn family in the Austrian Empire, whom resided in Czech Lands, migrating to the United States, claiming to being Irish and changing their surname to Kerry (I.E. John Kerry - presidential candidate!)


    The post-war re-integration of the Volksdeutsche ("right of return" in Germany) saw people whose last German ancestor was a Great Grandparent, being granted citizenship, and a lot of these people came from Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and the Asian SSR countries. I believe this law is still in effect and is being taking advantage of by Russians who don't even speak a word of German.


    I distinctly recall Coon saying something like the Nordic race being the youngest of them all (I think he was implying it was created when light-haired Cromagnids or even Balts, intermarried with Paleo-Atlantids or Mediterraneans ).

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatest
    The post-war re-integration of the Volksdeutsche ("right of return" in Germany) saw people whose last German ancestor was a Great Grandparent, being granted citizenship, and a lot of these people came from Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and the Asian SSR countries. I believe this law is still in effect and is being taking advantage of by Russians who don't even speak a word of German.
    Yes, it's still in effect, but as far as I know, the 'big wave' was in the nineties, when the iron curtain fell, today the russian immigrants are outnumbered by far by the muslims with the law of 'family reunion', resulting in half anatolian villages being 're-united'...
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    I would say that it depends on how you are classifying "Indo-Europeans" and "Nordics". If the question is simplified to this; What was the phenotype of the "Proto-Indo-Europeans?", then I would say, I'm confident that they were all blonde haired and blue eyed. As far as their cranial morphology is concerned, were they Brachiocephalic or Doliocephalic? Their genepool probably contained both variants and when populations migrated, resulting in different tribes etc., the branches carried a predominance of one or the other by chance. The result being Poles who are mostly Brachiocephalic and Swedes who are mostly Doliocephalic.
    I personally don't give any significance or relevance to either cranial type, but some do. You can find a "pure" Swede, with no admixture that has the features of a Pole. Just as you can find a person of "pure" "Mediterranean" type, brachiocephalic, but change their hair and eye color and they would go unnoticed in Norway.
    So back to your specific question; If you mean Nordic as just having Blonde hair and blue eyes, then I would say "Yes, they were all Nordic". If you mean Nordic as in "Blonde hair, blue eyes, doliocephalic, sharp straight nose, tall stature, etc., then I would say "No".
    Last edited by Hauke Haien; Saturday, May 2nd, 2009 at 11:05 PM. Reason: off-topic about administrative issues, PM sent

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