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Thread: Were All Indo-European Peoples Nordid/Nordic?

  1. #31
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    The kurgan crania and skeletons were mainly classified as "Proto-European" (= Cro-Magnid) as dully said Agrippa; in all the early PIE we find C; Nordois and Mediterranoids. Yet the CM element is common to all the earliest PIE cultures as well as the cultures associated to the earliest face of Indo-European expansion: the recosntructed faces of Mycaenean exposed in Pontikos' web page (http://dienekes.110mb.com/pictures/mycenaeanfaces/) show facial bone structure , slightly flatened and wide opening noses typical of CM; CM remains are also found in Andronovo culture of Kazakhstan (praecursors of Indo-Iranian movements into North Indian Sub-continent, Afghanistan & iran) as well as in South Siberia Affanasiev culture - with some eastern meds- (praecursors of Tocharian migrations in to NW China Tarim Basin)

    In the Corded ware complex immediatly north of the Kurgan region they also appear in variable degrees of admixture with the Corded ("proto-nordic" in Lawrence Angel's terminology) : yet they look virtually absent in the core of the corded ware cultural complex (S. Germany, Czecz republic etc) this means that the IE propragation was made in several steps: soem by direct migration/invasion, others by difusionism: in many cases difusion was made by previously kurganized people that had lost the original phenotipical element of the former PIE kurgan Peoples.

    Ilse's Schwidetzky article "The Influence of the Steppe People Based on the Physical Anthropological Data in Special Consideration to the Corded-Battle-Axe Culture" published in 1980 in the Journal of Indo-European Studies, Vol. 8 page 345 is a golden mine of information about this subject. Moreover this volume of the named journal contains another article on a related subject by Roland Menk.

  2. #32
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    Actually , NOrdic people are one of the least indo-european of all Europeans. Because, Indo-EUropeans were R1b and R1a, while the Nordic marker is I1 which is native aboriginal European.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teutonicus Fury View Post
    Actually , NOrdic people are one of the least indo-european of all Europeans. Because, Indo-EUropeans were R1b and R1a, while the Nordic marker is I1 which is native aboriginal European.
    Then how do you explain that the Europeans with the highest percentage of R1b are the Basques, one of few peoples to speak a non-Indo-European language?

    I would say that R1 is the oldest haplogroup in Europe. Haplogroup I arrived later. Then the Last Glacial Maximum came, which led to the split of R1 into R1b and R1a, and that of I into I1, I2a and I2b. After the ice drew back, the north was resettled. Several thousand years later, in the east, the Proto-Indo-Europeans arose, carrying a high amount of R1a. They spread to the West (and the East), and their language spread much further than their genes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anlef View Post
    Then how do you explain that the Europeans with the highest percentage of R1b are the Basques, one of few peoples to speak a non-Indo-European language?

    I would say that R1 is the oldest haplogroup in Europe. Haplogroup I arrived later. Then the Last Glacial Maximum came, which led to the split of R1 into R1b and R1a, and that of I into I1, I2a and I2b. After the ice drew back, the north was resettled. Several thousand years later, in the east, the Proto-Indo-Europeans arose, carrying a high amount of R1a. They spread to the West (and the East), and their language spread much further than their genes.
    No, the haplogroup I existed in all Europe before the arrival of R1a/R1b. As for the basque question, here you have the answer :
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origin...l#R1b-conquest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teutonicus Fury View Post
    No, the haplogroup I existed in all Europe before the arrival of R1a/R1b. As for the basque question, here you have the answer :
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origin...l#R1b-conquest
    Eupedia offers an interpretation of the results of DNA-analysis. It's not settled yet. Eupedia:

    Until recently it was believed that R1b originated in Western Europe due to its strong presence in the region today. The theory was that R1b represented the Paleolithic Europeans (Cro-Magnon) that had sought refuge in the Franco-Cantabrian region at the peak of the last Ice Age, then recolonised Central and Northern Europe once the ice sheet receded. The phylogeny of R1b proved that this scenario was not possible, because older R1b clades were consistently found in Central Asia and the Middle East, and the youngest in Western and Northern Europe. There was a clear gradient from East to West tracing the migration of R1b people (see map above). This age of the main migration from the shores of the Black Sea to Central Europe also happened to match the timeframe of the Indo-European invasion of Europe, which coincides with the introduction of the Bronze-Age culture in Western Europe, and the spread of Italo-Celtic and Germanic languages.

    Basically Eupedia says that R1b must be late, because there is a clear gradient from East to West. As if an earlier, pre-Indo-European arrival would not explain that gradient. Eupedia again:

    Historians and archeologists have long argued whether the Indo-European migration was a massive invasion, or rather a cultural diffusion of language and technology spread only by a small number of incomers. The answer could well be "neither". Proponents of the diffusion theory would have us think that R1b is native to Western Europe, and R1a alone represent the Indo-Europeans. The problem is that haplogroup R did arise in Central Asia, and R2 is still restricted to Central and South Asia, while R1a and the older subclades of R1b are also found in Central Asia. The age of R1b subclades in Europe coincide with the Bronze-Age. R1b must consequently have replaced most of the native Y-DNA lineages in Europe from the Bronze-Age onwards.

    The only substantial thing said is that the age of R1b subclades in Europe coincides with the Bronze Age. But I see no reason why that couldn't be explained with a model in which R1b was a pre-Indo-European arriver.

    And, like I said, the fact that the Basques, of all people, would have the highest amount of Indo-European blood defies logic. The explanation that Eupedia has for this is totally unconvincing.

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