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Thread: Is Mediterranean Blood a Foreign Component in the Germanic World?

  1. #111
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    It is interesting to note that Greeks and Italians and some other populations from the Balkans are closer to Turkish than to Northern european (which seems logical). It would be very interesting to include populations South and East of the mediterranean see as well (North Africa, Lebanon, Israel...) to see if there is also "a close correspondence between genetic and geographic distances" with these countries.

    Posted by: mauri | September 28, 2008 3:46 PM
    This is interesting? No, it's highly innacurate. How can someone begin to speak of the present day Greeks as if they were the same a the North Italians? Greeks wer conquered by the turks. Noth Italy was conquered by the Germans. 60% of Greeks are lactose intolerant, Sicilians also are heavily lactose intolerant, as are hungarians, and Jews (70%)for those )(who know about the milk test,lol)? Norwegians are 99% lactose tolerant , sa are danes, North west Germans also. The lactose tolerance ratio of population can be directly connected to Germanic Migrations in Western Europe.

    This blanket statement, "Greeks and Italians" above, makes no sense at all.

    Bavarians seem to have a Latin aspect to them, much more than a Slavic aspect, at least culturally. I said aspect, not "are Latinized" as the poster I am quoting might have done if he were writing this.
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    Doubt that north Italians can be grouped with Greeks (let alone Turks) on this count. Southern Italians and Sicilians are a different matter (can you say Magna Graecia?)

    Italy is a pretty heterogeneous nation genetically, probably within as well as between regions. Y-DNA and mtDNA studies show pretty significant differences over short distances (e.g. western and eastern Sicily, or even different villages in Tuscany) and one wonders what SNP/autosomal studies would show.



    If you look at the map and then at the distances involved and the geographic barriers to gene flow (namely the Alps and the Mediterranean), it should come as no surprise that Greeks and southern/central Italians would be more closely related to Turks than to Swedes. From the Neolithic period (expansion of farmers from Anatolia to Greece to southern Italy) up to the classical period (Etruscan and Greek colonizations) the Mediterranean was often more of a highway than a barrier.

    Lactose tolerance is more of a northern European trait than a southern one; the mutation responsible for lactose tolerance in European populations seems to have arisen in the area of the North European Plain in the late Neolithic. It Besides the geographical barriers, there was little selection for it in the south; Mediterranean Europe was never as much of a cattle-oriented society as the north.
    The northern Europeans who are most likely to be lactose-intolerant are Finns, who are in part descended from a Uralic population that adopted agriculture later than their Germanic neighbors, and continued to practice small-scale cultivation in combination with hunting.
    Last edited by Rhobot; Tuesday, March 24th, 2009 at 03:59 AM. Reason: img didnt show up

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhobot View Post
    Lactose tolerance is more of a northern European trait than a southern one; the mutation responsible for lactose tolerance in European populations seems to have arisen in the area of the North European Plain in the late Neolithic.
    I would not immediately lump lactose tolerance with "Northern European traits". I would theorise that lactose tolerance is highest where one meets a surplus of Neolithic phenotypes. Even within Northern Europe, the more Cro-Magnid populations tend to have a lower lactose tolerance.

    The northern Europeans who are most likely to be lactose-intolerant are Finns, who are in part descended from a Uralic population that adopted agriculture later than their Germanic neighbors,
    Whilst language is a major pointer towards culture, it can never function as a sole pointer, later conquest and influence may always have a more profound influence: Look at the case of English's latinisation without intermediate Romance cultural nor genetic influence.

    In cultural terms, Finns tend to be closer to the Baltic cultures of Lithuania and Latvia ... and especially the epitome of "Fenno-Baltic" intermediatism, the Estonians; than they are to the linguistically related Volgaic-Finns.

    As stated above, I would perhaps ascribe the high occurence of Finnish lactose-intolerance to the high occurence of Cro-Magnid phenotype, the genetic strain preventing lactose tolerance perhaps going back to pre-Neolithic hunter-gatherer societies anyhow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    I would not immediately lump lactose tolerance with "Northern European traits". I would theorise that lactose tolerance is highest where one meets a surplus of Neolithic phenotypes. Even within Northern Europe, the more Cro-Magnid populations tend to have a lower lactose tolerance.
    Southeastern Europeans (Italians, Greeks, etc.) are descended from some of the first farmers in Anatolia and the Fertile Crescent; some of their descendants migrated into Europe and introduced agriculture. Thus they are heavily descended from Neolithic migrants (in Greece and Eastern Sicily, about 75% of males have Y-DNA haplogroups of Near Eastern origin.)
    And these "Neolithic" people are also more likely than almost anyone else in Europe to be lactose intolerant.

    Lactose tolerance seems to have arisen on the North European Plain in the late Neolithic with the Funnel-Beaker culture. The earlier Neolithic migrants to Europe (the LBK culture) didn't have the lactose tolerance gene (we know this from DNA tests on skeletal remains.)
    Tacitus mentions the importance of cattle among the ancient Germanic peoples of this region in the Iron Age, and we see this going back to the time of the Funnel-Beaker culture. Among groups that did not have a cattle culture (whether it was grain-oriented farmers in the Mediterranean, or hunters-turned-shifting-cultivators in modern-day Finland), there was not as much selection for the lactose tolerance gene.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nachtengel View Post
    As I keep saying, pigmentation doesn't determine race by itself. Natalie Imbruglia is dark, but she is Europid. So are other Southern Europeans. What you should look at instead of "swarthy" and "greasy" is facial features. A blond with Negro ancestry is unmistakable. The pigmentation doesn't full the racially trained eye.
    Nat is mixed with Anglo-Celt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    The aim of this thread as been blurred, the question is whether Mediterranean blood is foreign to Germanics.
    This sounds very weird to my ears, since by definition it is, because Germanics didn't originate from the Mediterranean area.
    As bizarre as "Nordic" Berbers! Vandal legacy, lol?

    Quote Originally Posted by Allenson View Post
    Rather simple & straight forward, isn't it?
    Why "muddy" the issue, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychonaut View Post
    Kind of, except for that some of the Neolithic migrations into what would later become Germanic regions certainly did come from the Mediterranean. This is the standard explanation for the moderate to low frequency of haplogroup E1b1b in the North.
    That is said to be Hitler's haplogroup.

    Quote Originally Posted by Equilibrium View Post
    Among German Austrians, Flemish or Germans some internixture with Meds is normal. Among Scandinavians, Meds are entirely foreign. So it all depends on geography.

    We should keep in mind that ethnicity is a gradient and that few ethnic groups have not mixed at all with the ethnic groups they border with.
    Said by you, a Fleming, who's not offended. No big deal then, after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Allenson View Post
    Oh sure, the neolithic farmers from the southeast made some inroads into the north & northwest....but I would be no means consider them to be a native component during the period of Germanic ethnogenesis. Even if the genetic proto-Germanics (the craddle being modern day northern Germany, Denmark & southern Scandinavia imho) weren't speaking an IE tongue yet (and thus, aren't yet linguistically Germanic), the genotypic & phenotypic seeds had already been sown--neither of which have their origins in the Mediterranean basin proper.

    At least that's my take on the matter.


    The Germanic Substrate goes back to I haplogroup, which is Neolithic and its place in the North is as a colony from the Balkans, origin of the Megalithic Builders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    Perhaps the Jews had it wrong and they stole the Old Testament/Torah from ancient Germanic Heathens in the area - and in truth we are the Chosen People, not them? Oh, the irony...
    Since the Jews are haplogroup J and Paleo Europeans are I, with IJ being their immediate shared ancestor closer than any other Y-DNA, why not? Funny to inadvertently advocate Christian Identity and British Israelism, or Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormonism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Allenson View Post
    A few maps depicting conditions during the LGM:







    Areas where Y-Chromosome haplogroups developed and then spread north from as the glacier retreated.

    I'm R1B--does this mean that I'm really Iberian?

    If you add R1a in Poland/Balto-Slavs and R1b in Ireland/Celts together, you get majority R1 in Europe and among Germanics in particular, we having both subclades in abundance, whereas Balto-Slavs and Celts don't really have the other's subclade of R1, just their own ends of the spectrum entirely dependent on Germanic Mitteleuropa. That means they broke off of Germanics, who are the ultimate Indogermanic metaethnicity of Europe, having replaced the I natives. No wonder there is so much friction with Meds, whether of Semitic or ostensibly European origin, since those were in the way of our chariots during the Bronze Age Lebensraum from the Caspian (re: ship culture and easiest divergence for R1 and R2 in opposite directions) Urheimat. It's likely that metaethnics other than than Germanic, Celtic and Balto-Slavic were not originally Indogermanic, such as Med Italic and Albanian, Hellenic and Armenian, that were all assimilated later from the North. In truth, this is as much part of written history as the unwritten Bronze Age glories before them. Indo-Iranians are predominantly R2 in how they contrast, aside from the Dravidians of haplogroup H, who along with Caucasians of haplogroup G are all rather more related in prehistory to the IJ cluster than to R of either type. R is Xanthochroi and I is Melanochroi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anfang View Post
    This is interesting? No, it's highly innacurate. How can someone begin to speak of the present day Greeks as if they were the same a the North Italians? Greeks wer conquered by the turks. Noth Italy was conquered by the Germans. 60% of Greeks are lactose intolerant, Sicilians also are heavily lactose intolerant, as are hungarians, and Jews (70%)for those )(who know about the milk test,lol)? Norwegians are 99% lactose tolerant , sa are danes, North west Germans also. The lactose tolerance ratio of population can be directly connected to Germanic Migrations in Western Europe.

    This blanket statement, "Greeks and Italians" above, makes no sense at all.

    Bavarians seem to have a Latin aspect to them, much more than a Slavic aspect, at least culturally. I said aspect, not "are Latinized" as the poster I am quoting might have done if he were writing this.
    Northerners of R1 ancestry are descended from Steppe herders, hence lactose tolerance. My great-grandfather was a milkman whose chariot was a milk lorry, so come up with a Bronze Age joke about Steppe herders, lol.

    Greeks and Italians do belong together and so, Graecoroman does make most sense. Also, Bavarians aren't at all Latin but Celt (forgive them for being steamrolled by their Roman oppressors), if anything other than German, although it seems to be the same as Germans in Prussia sharing that name with Balto-Slav locals as well. I'd wager all the money I don't have (let's say, the American federal budget deficit in the $16 trillion range, iirc), that Celtic ethnogenesis sprung and broke off from R1b Bavaria and that Balto-Slav ethnogenesis sprung and broke off from R1a Prussia, that all were originally Germanic. I also hold that the Saxons are the original Germanic and epicentre of all Germanics to this day, whether in Germany or the Anglosphere. I'd even stake my life on it, no bull.

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