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Thread: Luxemburg, Between Romance Europe and Germanic Europe

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    Post Is Luxembourg germanic?

    Is Luxembourg a Germanic country, considering it is never brought up in this forum?

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    Account Inactive Huzar's Avatar
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    Post Re: is luxembourg germanic

    Quote Originally Posted by dark stone
    is luxembourg a germanic country considering it is never brought up in this forum
    In the complex( culture etc.), i think yes. Germanic country

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    Post Re: is luxembourg germanic

    Luxembourgish is a Germanic language; it is a West Moselle Frankish dialect, to be precise. French (Romance) and German (Germanic, of course) are also used.

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    Post Re: is luxembourg germanic

    Quote Originally Posted by Siegfried
    Luxembourgish is a Germanic language; it is a West Moselle Frankish dialect, to be precise. French (Romance) and German (Germanic, of course) are also used.
    Yes, French is the second language there , after luxembourgish/germanic.

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    Even if they—alike the German Swiss—normally don’t consider themselves as Germans (anymore), Luxemburg entirely is ethnically German (and thus Germanic), however having traditionally a cultural-lingual French superstratum. (The libgual-cultural French influence is old, as in former centuries, larger ethnically French regions belonged to Luxemburg—they form the recent Belgian province Luxembourg in Wallonia; the recent state of Luxemburg however is reduced completely to the ethnically German region.)

    Native tongue of the Luxemburgers is the Mosel-Frankish dialect of German, which is also spoken in the bordering FR-German regions of Rhenania-Palatinate and Saarland. This Mosel-Frankish dialect was made, as "Lëtzebuergesch", the "national language" in 1984. Official languages there are Lëtzebuergesch, French and standard German. The willingness of using the "national language" as standard language (meaning as language of writing and reading) is not overall too high, and practically it is rather only a spoken idiom.

    In school, Lëtzebuergesch is used as oral idiom, however educational languages are in first line German and French. In parliament, before World War II standard German and French were languages of debate. After the war, standard German was gradually replaced by the dialect; today, the debate there goes on normally in the dialect, French is used normally only when citing out of laws texts. Lëtzebuergesch is not used as language of law, language of law is French—and when the languages are made public, it is done in standard German.

    The use of Lëtzebuergesch as standard language is thus not really that more "developed" than that of dialects in Germany, Austria, or Switzerland is. I think it’s not even completely standardized (for spelling etc., the rules of standard German are used), and the Luxemburgers themselves have problem to read or write it. Lëtzebuergesch is in fact overall spoken in the radio; the four greatest newspapers of Luxemburg however overwhelmingly use standard German: for instance the leading Luxemburger Wort, consists of 82% texts in standard German, 16% French (mostly texts of international politics), and 2% in Lëtzebuergesch. It’s similar in the Lëtzebuerger Journal and the Tageblatt. Luxemburg has also two French newspapers, La Voix de Luxembourg and La Quotidie, which however address predominantly to abroad.

    The use of Lëtzebuergesch is practically limited to texts of the sort of e.g. posters with announcements of fiests. If one goes to Luxemburg, one can get the impression of standard German being rather little in use, because road signs are bilingually in Lëtzebuergesch and French. But in reality standard German is still dominant as standard language, as e.g. in the newspapers (see above), and in most books, which are read and written there. French follows here practically only as second. Lëtzebuergesch, as pointed out, is in its actual position rather similar to the dialect e.g. in Switzerland or in FR-Germany. I remember having seen in my university in the bookshelf a book with the title "De Lëtzebuerger im Kriëch" (or something like that). Of course I understood that it is "Die Luxemburger im Krieg" [The Luxemburgers in the War]. I took it out of the bookshelf expecting that it was written in "Lëtzebuergesch"—however when I opened that book on collected war memories of ordinary Luxemburgers, I realized that it was written in standard German. You see the similar such if you look a bit around in bookshops in Luxemburg.

    Most books in Luxemburg are printed in standard German, the Luxemburgers also watch mostly German TV and read German magazines. In the capital, the city of Luxemburg, you may also come along people who don’t speak German (and also not Lëtzebuergesch), but only French—these are with certainty newcomers or commuters from France, not natives. The city of Luxemburg is anyway far more Frenchified and "international" than the rest of the country. You’ll notice quite a contrast in this respect between the city of Luxemburg and, say, Echternach.

    The meaning of the elevating of Lëtzebuergesch for the last decades is of course to "dissociate" oneself from the Germans and emphasize the claim of being an own nation (wich may be true if as nation also a consciousness above the actual ethnicity can be understood, but whch is certainly not given in an ethnical sense—similar to the Swiss "nation", which consists of several ethnicities, among them German Swiss). I find it a rather unintelligible thing to replace the high language of Goethe and Schiller and world language by an actual dialect (of that language), but anyway the practical lingual use and the fact that the people in Luxemburg stick highly to German mass media thwarts the "official" language policy there somehow...
    Man ſei Held oder Heiliger. In der Mitte liegt nicht die Weisheit, ſondern die Alltäglichkeit.

    SPENGLER

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    Senior Member Naggaroth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by red beard
    is luxembourg considered a germanic country and does anyone hail from there
    Have you heard about the Benelux-countries? Those are Belgium, Netherland(Holland) and Luxembourg. Luxembourg is a small country which lies in between Germany, Belgium and Holland, I think, and is therefor not to be considered to be German as ordgau is writing.

    Perhaps a lesson in geografi is a smart choice? There is a reason why they are an own country. In the sam way as Sweden, Denmark and Norway is different countries. Though that is another discussion.
    3

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    With sudden start the miser wakes.
    Along the silent room he stalks,
    Looks back and tremble as he walks...
    Gay's
    The miser and pluthus

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naggaroth
    Have you heard about the Benelux-countries? Those are Belgium, Netherland(Holland) and Luxembourg. Luxembourg is a small country which lies in between Germany, Belgium and Holland, I think, and is therefor not to be considered to be German as ordgau is writing.

    Perhaps a lesson in geografi is a smart choice? There is a reason why they are an own country. In the sam way as Sweden, Denmark and Norway is different countries. Though that is another discussion.
    The question wasn't whether Luxembourg was German, but whether it was Germanic.

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    Senior Member Todesritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naggaroth
    Have you heard about the Benelux-countries? Those are Belgium, Netherland(Holland) and Luxembourg. Luxembourg is a small country which lies in between Germany, Belgium and Holland, I think, and is therefor not to be considered to be German as ordgau is writing.

    Perhaps a lesson in geografi is a smart choice? There is a reason why they are an own country. In the sam way as Sweden, Denmark and Norway is different countries. Though that is another discussion.
    There was a time a few centuries back when Trondhjem was separate from historical Norway, was it then Norwegian, or not Norwegian? At a point 150 years ago or less, Germany was divided into little principalities, including Luxembourg, were they each their own separate country, and therefore not German/Germanic? :

    Perhaps a study of geography and many other things would be of benefit to you as well?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Todesritter
    There was a time a few centuries back when Trondhjem was separate from historical Norway, was it then Norwegian, or not Norwegian? At a point 150 years ago or less, Germany was divided into little principalities, including Luxembourg, where they each their own separate country, and therefore not German/Germanic? :

    Perhaps a study of geography and many other things would be of benefit to you as well?
    This is not geography but rather history. Yes I now that Trondheim was a part of Sweden, but then you also say that Trondheim has always been a part of Sweden, and that is wrong. Trondheim was back in history the capitol of Norway, so it was only for a few years swedish. And I also know that Norway has been in union with both Denmark and Sweden but still we were almost like an own country. It has been the same way for those who lived in Luxembourg.
    Trondheim was then under swedish rules yes, and therefor it was swedish, though the people living there were norwegians and swedish.

    So I hope you can understand that this is more like a historical lecture, and yes I do have to study it more. I agree in that!
    3

    The wind was high, the window shakes,
    With sudden start the miser wakes.
    Along the silent room he stalks,
    Looks back and tremble as he walks...
    Gay's
    The miser and pluthus

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naggaroth
    Have you heard about the Benelux-countries? Those are Belgium, Netherland(Holland) and Luxembourg. Luxembourg is a small country which lies in between Germany, Belgium and Holland, I think, and is therefor not to be considered to be German as ordgau is writing.
    Between Belgium, Germany and France

    Red Beard:

    Ethnic groups of Luxembourg:

    Celtic base (with French and German blend), Portuguese, Italian, Slavs (from Montenegro, Albania, and Kosovo) and European (guest and resident workers)

    More info: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/lu.html

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