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Thread: Luxemburg, Between Romance Europe and Germanic Europe

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    Luxembourg is estimated to be 80% Alpine, 15% Borreby and 5% other Nordish types so it it’s only made up of 20% Central Nordish types, thus it isn’t very Germanic in a racial sense as it is predominantly Mediterranid. It’s culture however I would say is very Germanic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naggaroth
    Have you heard about the Benelux-countries? Those are Belgium, Netherland(Holland) and Luxembourg. Luxembourg is a small country which lies in between Germany, Belgium and Holland, I think, and is therefor not to be considered to be German as ordgau is writing.

    Perhaps a lesson in geografi is a smart choice? There is a reason why they are an own country. In the sam way as Sweden, Denmark and Norway is different countries. Though that is another discussion.
    Of course it is an own state. Austria also is. Anyway, states have existed in history and exist in presence for various reasons, so just pointing to a state being a state is no answer to what it is ethnically-meta-ethnically. And the population in Luxemburg is ethnically German, with French cultural and lingual influence and superstratum. There is a reason that laws there are formulated in standard German when made public and that the quite predominating language of the biggest papers there is standard German, of the leading Luxemburger Wort to more than 80%. There is also a reason why the native idiom and official "national language" in the whole country is exactly the same dialect which is spoken in Rhenania-Palatinate and Saarland.

    Knowledge of history can also be a smart choise; neither ethnically nor historically is it good to parallelize and equalize with the named Scandinavian countries. The saying of the three "Benelux" countries as much as the union between them dates from the period since World War II, as far as I know (Luxemburg was until after World war I bound administratively to the German Reich, see below), Belgium itself again is ethnically divided and a creation of the 19th century, its name a neo-classicism of that antiquity-loving time which knew its Caesar. Luxemburg, by the way, does not lie geographically between Germany, Belgium and Holland, but between Germany, Belgium and France.

    After the end of the Old Reich in the post-Napoleonic era, Luxemburg became a part of the new German Confederation just as the other German principalities, however against hopes there in personal-union with the United Netherlands. Luxemburg was divided in 1839 ethnically, because the Belgians who now were occupants there refused to leave it: the ethnically French-Walloon areas were given to Belgium, the ethnically German areas (with the exception of Arel) now formed the remaining Luxemburg, which on the other hand got more autonomy within its personal-union with the Netherlands. Luxemburg was normal part of the German Confederation until its end, the country welcomed and took part at the German revolution of 1848 as much as it had done at the German liberation war against Napoleon in 1814.

    The main reason why it remained an independent state was its neutralization in 1867. For that indeed the geographical location of the country was decisive, but in the sense of strategical-militarily reasons in that period between the end of the German Confederation and the foundation of the second Reich: the fortress of the city of Luxemburg was of high militarily-strategical importance. Napoleon III wanted to incorporate Luxemburg to France, what Bismarck managed to prevented. As a compromise solution between Prussia and France, it was neutralized then.

    However it stayed after 1871 in customs union with the German Reich, which was strengthened through the railway administration of the country also taken over by the Reich. Later, after 1890, it also joined the tax and social legislation of the Reich. The customs and railway union with Germany was untied after World War I by France and Belgium against Luxemburg's will and it was bound in this respect to France and Belgium. Belgian-French rivality was a factor for it staying independent at that time.
    Man ſei Held oder Heiliger. In der Mitte liegt nicht die Weisheit, ſondern die Alltäglichkeit.

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    Post Re: is luxembourg germanic

    Quote Originally Posted by Siegfried
    Luxembourgish is a Germanic language; it is a West Moselle Frankish dialect, to be precise. French (Romance) and German (Germanic, of course) are also used.
    The practised triglossia there is of a certain interesting complexity: Colloquial language of the natives and official "national language" (since 1984) is "Lëtzebuergesch" (Luxemburgisch), which belongs to Mosel-Frankish, a West-Middle German dialect. Administrative and legislative language is French, parliament debates however go on almost exclusively in Lëtzebuergesch; laws again are made public in translations in standard German. On a lower administrative level, also standard German is used in correspondence.

    Educational language in school is in the first six years standard German, then it is joined by French, and later in the upper grades French is, with some exceptions though, educational language. Lëtzebuergesch is cultivated in special lessons until the seventh grade.

    Road signs in the Grand-Duchy are normally bilingually in French and Lëtzebuergesch. The lingual usage in street signs can differ from place to place: For instance in the city of Luxemburg they may be only in French, in Vianden and Esch-on-Alzig in French and standard German, in Wasserbillig in French and Lëtzebuergesch.

    Lëtzebuergesch is the usual idiom in Luxemburg's radio.--In written communication of the inhabitants, however standard German dominates as well as in the biggest papers of the country; in the leading Luxemburger Wort more than 80% of the articles are written in standard German, only around 2% in Lëtzebuergesch, the rest in French. In the whole of Luxemburg's print media, standard German dominates with a share of ca. 95% of all texts--the willingness of really writing and reading Lëtzebuergesch is not at all too great.
    Last edited by Nordgau; Monday, March 21st, 2005 at 02:18 PM.
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    Post AW: is luxembourg germanic

    Not forgotten the germanic part of that lusemburg, that is since 1 and a half century at Belgium - Arel. The people of Arel wanted to the beginning of the 20th century to germany, like the people of south tirol, but since 1945 there arent any movements to becom to Luxemburg or Germany.
    Last edited by Bluterbe; Saturday, March 12th, 2005 at 09:04 PM.
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    Post Re: is luxembourg germanic

    It definately is. Lëtzebuergs is the only Middle Germanic language still spoken in Europe; it's slightly increasing in popularity, as it has been made the official language.

    Luxemburg is also a great nation, in fact, it's one of my favorite countries of Europe. I'd like to go on vacation there again.

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    Post Re: is luxembourg germanic

    Quote Originally Posted by Kening Redbad
    It definately is. Lëtzebuergs is the only Middle Germanic language still spoken in Europe; [...]
    Middle German, to which Lëtzebuergesch belongs, is in fact spoken all over the middle of the German language area...

    Man ſei Held oder Heiliger. In der Mitte liegt nicht die Weisheit, ſondern die Alltäglichkeit.

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    Post Re: is luxembourg germanic

    excellent explaination

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    Post Re: is luxembourg germanic

    Luxembourg and Switzerland are indeed two great examples of very civilised and prosperous European countries that have shown support for several languages.

    Could we say that French is the official language of the authorities in Luxembourg, and that French is the language of the elite?

    What do you think is the reason behind the fact that there are more ill feelings between the Flemings and Walloons in Belgium?

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    Post Re: is luxembourg germanic

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenlivet
    Luxembourg and Switzerland are indeed two great examples of very civilised and prosperous European countries that have shown support for several languages.
    In Switzerland it's probably so unproblematic, because the langauge spheres are relatively seperated (there are only smaller areas which are really bilingual). Switzerland is thus not really a good example for a multiethnic utopia, as which it is often seen by multiculturalists--and "multiethnic" Switzerland is anywhere the question of autochthonous western European ethnicities under the roof of one country, not such of immigration which the multiculturalists want to promote (in this respect, the Swiss are as xenophobic as everyone else in Europe).

    In Luxemburg it's not the question of different autochthonous ethnic populations dealing with each other (if we leave out the question of newcomers from beyond the border), but of the Luxemburgers--autochthonous Mosel-Frankish German--themselves handling around with different idioms more or less well-versedly.

    Could we say that French is the official language of the authorities in Luxembourg, and that French is the language of the elite?
    Yes, as said, French is still leading as legislative and adminstrative language and its reputation is quite high. It generally has its domaine in all what's "elitist" sphere: "high" politics, "high" culture. In practicized politics however, French loses to the dialect (I mentioned the parliament debates above; French dominated here decades ago more than today, the debate today going on mostly in Lëtzebuergesch), and in culture, where in the "higher" sphere Lëtzebuergesch isn't that present, it has standard German as competitor (which dominates anyway quite massively in print-media, as mentioned).

    The French influence in Luxemburg is traditional, because the Luxemburg territory was in former centuries bigger than today and stretched into Francophone-Walloon area in the west. For centuries, the historical territory contained thus of two ethnic groups. Even if the Francophone and Germanophone spheres of the countries were divided, the French language did to a certain degree penetrate the Germanophone east of the country, because since the Burgundian rule in the 15th century, where French was court language, it had high prestige. Namely in the city of Luxemburg was the influence of French not little.

    With the foundation of the Belgium, in 1839 the western French part (and a little German part) was annexed by Belgium (where it forms today's province Luxembourg), and Luxemburg was reduced to its eastern autochthonous German part--which is nowerday's Luxemburg--, but the influence and status of the French language remained.

    The city of Luxemburg is also today clearly more Frenchified than the rest of the country: The correspondence of the other communities with Luxemburg City takes place normally in French, among themselves all the other communities in the country communicate in standard German.

    What do you think is the reason behind the fact that there are more ill feelings between the Flemings and Walloons in Belgium?
    Massive cultural-lingual-political domination of French since the days of the establishment of Belgium in the 19th century, I guess. Frans can probably tell more about that.
    Last edited by Nordgau; Monday, March 21st, 2005 at 02:16 PM.
    Man ſei Held oder Heiliger. In der Mitte liegt nicht die Weisheit, ſondern die Alltäglichkeit.

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    Post Re: is luxembourg germanic

    We are just 2 different countries in every way.

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