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Thread: Evolutionary Psychology: Male Mate Preferences

  1. #21
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    Post Re: Evolutionary Psychology: Male Mate Preferences

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa
    On a personal level I would usually agree, on a collective level the only solution is to change the preferences which they got from the ruling ideology and the liberal social structures.

    The fight against this structures is necessary and too much tolerance for women which act crazy and irrational is not acceptable because it leads to further destruction.

    Of course its necessary and good to know more about men and women to make a system which fit both and give both a life concept which they can accept and which is effective too.
    Current wage situation in the USA is that one man cannot afford to support a wife and even 2 children on a typical job. 60-70 years ago, a working man (even working class) could work a job and feed 5 kids and a wife. Now both husband and wife must work just to "make ends meet" for the two of them, and even one child is a great financial burden.

    And yet Americans are encouraged to think that working their jobs is somehow ennobling - as if pushing papers for some corporate entity really helps the human race or "society" somehow. Europeans need to remember that in the USA, the 40 hour work week with benefits is a thing of the past - most Americans work much longer hours, or have part-time jobs with no benefits (no health insurance, no paid vacation, etc).

    It's not like in Europe where shops close midday for lunch and then close after 5 pm, and people have one month of paid vacation. That would sound like a paradise to most Americans.

    Our society is more and more stress-filled. We have high worker output because we work absurd numbers of hours each week on average.
    "Whatever is done from love always occurs beyond good and evil." - F. Nietzsche

  2. #22
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    Post Re: Evolutionary Psychology: Male Mate Preferences

    It's not like in Europe where shops close midday for lunch and then close after 5 pm, and people have one month of paid vacation. That would sound like a paradise to most Americans.
    That is in most parts over in Europe too and financial plus career problems are at least in the statistic the No. 1 reason to have no or less children.
    Imo thats insofar a lie as they just dont want to stop their hedonistic lifestyle and burden themselves with responsibility.

    But you have to distinguish upper and lower classes. What I said about the hedomatic-career oriented pathological view of women and many men is mainly visible in the upper class and middle class which is conditioned to think like that.

    In the lower classes and lower middle class you are right, some want children but they want to live as humans as well.

    Thats a social and economic problem in itself which must be solved.

    But what America and the whole West needs is a totally different value system. Work and money secondary and status must be represented in many other forms as well.
    The whole social space must be completely reorganized. As long as that doesnt happen I see no bright future for the majority, neither in individuals, families, for the communities, for the race and ecosystem.
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  3. #23

    Post Re: Evolutionary Psychology: Male Mate Preferences

    Quote Originally Posted by Scoob
    Current wage situation in the USA is that one man cannot afford to support a wife and even 2 children on a typical job. 60-70 years ago, a working man (even working class) could work a job and feed 5 kids and a wife. Now both husband and wife must work just to "make ends meet" for the two of them, and even one child is a great financial burden.
    That is simply untrue. I've heard many men use this argument to get their wives out of the home and back into the workplace so they can afford to buy more toys (newer trucks, a boat, $1500 set golf club).

    There are plenty of jobs available with good pay, health insurance, and lots of vacation time, but you have to have the education and the drive to get them. I work one full-time job that pays well, has full health, dental and vision insurance, employer-paid life insurance, educational reimbursement, and several weeks of vacation time each year. I could easily support a family (not that I would since that is a man's job ). My Mother doesn't work, either. My parents live very well off of my Dad's income alone. My grandmothers never worked and they had seven children each.

    The only people I ever hear complain about a lack of well-paying jobs and the necessity of two-income families are men. Forgive me if I sound like I'm male-bashing here, but modern men are such babies. I've met 1000+ women who support themselves and their children on one full-time job and still clean, cook, grocery shop, attend PTA meetings, and take care of family & friends along with all of life's other obligations. It sucks, it's a lot of hard work and not much time for pleasure, but it can be done and is done by lots of people.

    I don't have a family so I get to spend my money on toys and other hedonistic, materialistic, and selfish consumerist recreations. However, I fully realize that having children means that you don't get to do that anymore (probably why I haven't had any yet ). When you have a bunch of brats, you don't get to buy a new SUV every other year, spend $300 on a pair of shoes, or even have cable or cell phones. You cut out the frills and stick to basics - that means no golf club memberships and no freakin' Xbox. No using the credit card to buy drinks at the local pub or parts for that motorcylce you always meant to restore. The families who need two income are those who want all the extra luxuries to keep up with the Jones or those who have zero education and can't get decent jobs.

    And yet Americans are encouraged to think that working their jobs is somehow ennobling - as if pushing papers for some corporate entity really helps the human race or "society" somehow. Europeans need to remember that in the USA, the 40 hour work week with benefits is a thing of the past - most Americans work much longer hours, or have part-time jobs with no benefits (no health insurance, no paid vacation, etc).
    Most Americans work much longer hours? Where did you get that from? Have any stats? Even Wal-Mart employees making $7.00 an hour get health insurance and paid vacation time. The newest labor law regulations just passed restored overtime pay to thousands of management and middle management workers who were not previously eligible for that pay. Effective July 1st in California, people can get disability pay to take care of an ill family member or a new baby. California also has a program, as do most states, to provide low-cost ($9.00 per month!!!) medical, dental & vision insurance to children under age 19. The really poverty-stricken people can get Medicaid... which actually has more extensive coverage than my private insurance which costs over $400 per month.

    I work 44 hours one week and 36 the next week, with every other Friday off, and full benefits. I love getting overtime hours, too, cha-ching. If it weren't for people like me spending our disposable incomes on trivial trinkets, the cashiers and clerks at Wal-Mart and the departments stores wouldn't have jobs at all. You're welcome.

    The point is that it can be done and it is done all over this country. Millions of people survive and prosper off of a single income because they know how to do it. The jobs are out there and waiting for qualified applicants. The benefits are their for those who know how to get them.

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    Post Re: Evolutionary Psychology: Male Mate Preferences

    Sigrun: Interesting, thanks for your input on this. But the fact remains that more and more jobs are being converted to part-time work without benefits. Companies are outsourcing to India and elsewhere (including in tech sector, which used to be thought of as an American specialty and safe from that kind of thing) or simply cutting jobs. This is a major problem. I'm glad you have a good job, but it's not what the majority are experiencing in this country.

    Agrippa: I doubt people would restructure their basic beliefs unless there were some kind of real crisis. Politicians, especially in the US system, are conservative wimps afraid to venture out with bold new ideas. They are not leaders in most cases.

    What would the new ideology be called? I don't think framing things in 20th century terms would be useful.
    "Whatever is done from love always occurs beyond good and evil." - F. Nietzsche

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    Post Re: Evolutionary Psychology: Male Mate Preferences

    This is a very opinionated statement that offers no proof. Post #24, Christianson.

    I think perhaps you are very impressed with yourself.

  6. #26
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    Post Re: Evolutionary Psychology: Male Mate Preferences

    Sigrun you made good points because its true that the radical emancipation and hedomatic revolution of the 60's changed men's behaviour as well.

    If we speak about people which can afford a decent life with more than 3 children and a women which doesnt work, well, it depends were you are living, what education, intelligence etc. level you have and so on, but fact is, that more and more people CANNOT AFFORD IT, at least not if they want to have a decent life and I dont speak about luxury, at least not what understand under it.
    And look at it, there are more and more even well-educated white people which CANNOT AFFORD IT!

    In fact men and women lose economically. Why? Because a family is simply cheaper, you can buy other and bigger things than in a single household.
    In my opinion this is one reason why even advertising propagates singles and small families.

    Such singles have more private work at home as well because they can manage the household with others (with the exception of Mexican cheap charwomen and Asian cooks in cheap restaurants McDonalds etc...).
    The women is losing because she lose time, has more to work and no stable partnership.
    Mens lose because they dont have a managed household, no right for the children and must pay for it because of the idiotic law.

    The fundamental problem began not just with emancipation and women work, but even earlier with out-of-house jobs of men, of the majority of men.

    Because in earlier times the householf was made up by men and women, they had not just a "loving" partnership, but worked together for the future of their own, their children, their line etc...

    Because out-of-house work is necessary in a modern economy we cant go back but we should have made replacements of the older structures which function as well.

    That was what ideologies basically tried imo with the exception of the liberal ideology which had no such idea at all because its all up to the "individual".
    But as we can see that doesnt work at all.

    What would the new ideology be called? I don't think framing things in 20th century terms would be useful.
    Right, thats the reason why I call myself a "Progressive Collectivist".

    What we need is a collective organized society which contains sociobiological views about Eugenic and kinship and is on the other hand ecological and social oriented.
    Which organizes the whole society in cells hierarchically and leads the whole collective in the useful direction.

    The economy should be basically capitalistic but with a strong state sector and regulation.

    The ISI-strategy might be on the long run quite useful at least in a big economic space with protection duties. At least if the major crisis will come which I believe.

    Family and social space in general should be completely reorganized. You might say that difficult, but if you look at what even intelligent people believe today because of the good propaganda, well, you can change things with a good idea very fast when the crisis will come and good people will work together.

    Ok, thats the crux, but who said it will be easy?

    About the Progressive Collectivist rules = http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthre...0&page=2&pp=20

    My only problem is time and language because its not that easy to say what I want, which is partly quite complicated, in English.

    But I thing some of my ideas might be a good alternative and I know others have similar (not the same) views at least in parts.

    On the long run (really long! ) I thing there are not that much alternatives to value system like I promote because its oriented on the reality of life and what we HAVE to do to survive on a high level or develop mankind further.

    The main problem is that today many people believe in the absolut freedom of the individual at least as long it doesnt harm the (pseudo-) liberal society.
    It will be a big step to say yes you have certain rights and freedom but you are in the end just one small part in a bigger system for which exist and not the other way around.

    For this realization people need a real crisis, thats for sure. Of course people wouldnt just lose because my and similar ideologies give very much back too.
    Not just more common sence/spirit, but also a strong believe, common aims and the idea of an absolute justice in which people cannot do what they want and everything what some do (at least the really importants things) must have its justification in the interests of the collective.

    From that the most will benefit although everyone might have to sacrifice as well.

    EDIT: In the new statistic of Central Europe/German people every 2nd man wants children or more children but just every 3rd women.

    So they live even more in their hedomatic bubble as most men which is something I can see in my personal environment as well.
    Many women are generous towards friends and their pets, but they dont want to have children just because they would take their "freedom" to travel, go to party, have casual sex and concentrate on career.

    If a man had 2 such women he might not have too much respect and faith in women any more.
    It would be unlogical if he would invest his money in such women which have the RIGHT to take his children away, have even in marriage casual sex (law changed in Europe) and are strongly oriented on their "friends".

    They are more often totally integrated in this liberal-individualistic lifestyle and -concept.

    Of course advertising, education, companies, political ideologies manipulated them, but that doesnt change the bad result...

    Men getting worse and worse as well, but its mainly secondary.

    Imo men were "paid" by many women, with casual sex and pornography to accept "emancipation" and this unnatural behaviour.

    Its the same like it is with Bonobos, this dumb apes we know. This apes are weaker and more sex oriented than chimps, but women have more power because they work a) more together than chimps and b) have often sex with each other and the Bonobo "man".

    Our society goes in the same direction.

    But if you get chimps with this "peaceful" or better sex-driven Bonobos together, bet how long they survive...

    Its the same with our culture, the Indoeuropean structues were useful and effective, even the adapted Christian were in way, liberal arent and the lifestyle of women today is biological destructive and its not just the fault of the men.

    Because you should ask first why this women are alone. Of course many are not responsible for their situation, but many are.
    Last edited by Agrippa; Saturday, May 8th, 2004 at 07:24 PM.
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    Post Re: Evolutionary Psychology: Male Mate Preferences

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa
    But if you get chimps with this "peaceful" or better sex-driven Bonobos together, bet how long they survive...
    .
    The above quote points to the real problem. Bonobos would become extinct. Emancipation of women (they become policy makers) + effeminization of the males = Dead community.

    "Throughout history the civilized centers have succombed to the barbarian fringes due to the effeminization of the males." A great quote by whom I no longer remember.

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    Post Re: Evolutionary Psychology: Male Mate Preferences

    I think when people are part of a bigger social structure that they feel at home in, they feel more powerful, more free, more happy, and more "spiritually" connected.

    One demotivating factor of liberal/capitalist society is the chaos and lack of direction for the individual. In Christian times, people felt happy to live their lives in devotion to God. Now, people imagine their job is some higher purpose, but feel that it really is not, or fear that it's just futile in the end. Family is a type of higher purpose. Of course this society breeds unscrupulous/immoral people who don't care whether they contribute to a greater good, and this is a type of de-evolution IMO.

    But what kind of concrete policies could a politician in the US or a European nation advocate to advance towards Progressive Collectivism? Perhaps strong financial incentives for families and stay at home moms?

    In the USA a big problem is that upper level professionals not only work outside of home (as most people do), but work in other cities, going to work in airplanes or trains and seeing the family only on weekends, if they can. It's considered very bad for a career for a young professional to be "tied down" by family.

    A big problem here is that cities in the USA are destroyed by permanent "colonies" of degenerate elements. They should be forced out, so that urban centers can be more efficient and human-friendly (safe and clean) areas of human life and business. If professionals can live happily with a family in good environment and ride the subway to work, that's great.

    "Telecommuting" via Internet technology etc might also help make this easier.

    I think businesses should be financially rewarded for encouraging pro-family practices, and punished for negative practices.

    Also, I think there should be severe penalties for corporations that have no allegiance to workers in their native country. If they really want to operate in the Third World, they should be forced out of the First World.
    "Whatever is done from love always occurs beyond good and evil." - F. Nietzsche

  9. #29
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    Post Re: Evolutionary Psychology: Male Mate Preferences

    Youre absolutely right and the funny thing is that we would have NOW the best position ever in time to do all that. The problem is just the Neoliberals want to create a worldwide free market with no effective social and ecological rules. In such an environment measures which would provide the necessary economic circumscription are just not profitable.

    Furthermore you dont go far enough imo. You still think at least in parts in a liberal scheme. What I say is not just to change the economic system but the whole social and political system.

    A mother and a father, people which fight for their community are more important than the slaves of the companies even if they might be more intelligent.

    My idea of a progressive society is that we are really collective organized. I have just things like my own ancestors the Siebenbuerger Saxons or Kosacks in mind in which every community was under the rule of the collective but organized itself.

    Just with modern and more strict-effective administration-leadership.

    Too long the Western people lived as individuals which had freedom in areas in which its just destructive and the lack of freedom in useful parts.

    This pathological trend of the last 50-60 years must be end. I dont want to go back to a conservative age, I want to use the best parts of the past and combine it with the most effective and useful parts for the future.

    I want a society with one aim, with one rule, which is going in one direction and that fast and effective.

    The liberal system must die and must be completely forgotten that the European race(s) and mankind can live and develop itself further to an higher level.

    But about such issues I could speak hours and hours, personnally and in German of course better than in English and over I-net but I try my best to get the message through it.
    Magna Europa est patria nostra
    STOP GATS! STOP LIBERALISM!

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    Post Re: Evolutionary Psychology: Male Mate Preferences

    Agrippa, thanks for trying to explain these ideas in English, because your English is far better than my German.

    When you say people should be organized starting in local communities/cells, do you mean socially, economically, or both? For instance would each cell focus on one economic activity, say a farm, or an automobile production plant, or etc?

    I am interested to hear your ideas.

    I do think that exposure to a wide range of activities can make people smarter in many ways, so long as their activity remains focused and they can refine their skills without becoming too myopic.
    "Whatever is done from love always occurs beyond good and evil." - F. Nietzsche

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