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Thread: Council Disregard Objections of 3,000 Residents to Traveller Site As ‘They Are Racist’

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    I disagree. They should have to fully complement their concerns with hardened facts. Not sensational, tabloid headline parroting.
    Defending one's way of life is a matter of instinct, gut reaction. Often, people can't rephrase things like this very well. PC has literally taken many of the words we'd need out of our mouths so that we literally are incapable of speaking against the ruling ideology - one of its main purposes, if you reread your Orwell.
    It's too much to expect of people that they should have to formulate their every opinion in language watertight enough to pass muster in academia.
    The key thing with integration is emotion, and if there's enough distrust for an action it shouldn't be forced on people. Even if they're only 35% or whatever. I would say that to alienate that proportion of an established community is quite enough to prompt abandonment of any fundamental plan to alter its make-up. Even 20%.
    You know as well as I do that the majority of the rural areas are not long rooted families, but the offcuts of the great class movement manufactured by Maggie Thatcher in the eighties and nineties.
    That is not all true. And even if it were, so what? A lot was wrong in those years, but many people tried to do the best for their families, who can blame them? Most who succeeded did so on their own merits. And now the do-gooders are there to take revenge by plonking this on them. Shameful.

    Many in the political classes hate people who have done well for themselves and seek to punish them at every turn. They speak of noble ideas like integration and gentrification, but all they do is ensure that there's no nice areas left to run away from the failed society. (Maybe ultimately a good thing in radicalising opinions, but not the most pleasant thing to live through)
    Neither would I if they happened to be negros and other aliens, but if the genetic similarity is on level plains, then they will no doubt "mix in" with the local rhythm and co-habit.#
    But see my comments on the critical mass issue. Why do they have to be treated as a special group? If they really wanted to settle and join in with the rest of us, there are plenty of mechanisms for that that already exist. The state would treat them as any down and out, and provide housing and so on. If they don't want to rove around outside the folk, they can join in as individuals and as families. Being lumped all together on some site where they have no links only reinforces their apartness.
    Given time, they may well be appearing as you are now. Englishmen of "interesting stock".
    If they are of predominantly British Isles stock (and I am wholly of that), sure, but this isn't the way to achieve this.

  2. #42
    Senior Member BeornWulfWer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrioten View Post
    Had they been easy to integrate and deal with they'd been assimilated into the British population by now just like all other population elements.
    Very true, but coming from a nationalist, for you to say that they should be so quick to shed their ancestral roots is very disconcerting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrioten View Post
    It's the same story all over Europe with these folks
    Sorry, Patrioten. The Gypsies on one side of the English channel are not the same as the ones on my side of the channel.

    I think we need to nip this one right in the bud for the continuation of this argument to remain on an actual "sane" basis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrioten View Post
    for some mysterious reason racism makes it impossible to integrate them wherever they live.
    Racism, sensationalism, lies, unfounded stories, etc, etc.., yep! They all can be negative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrioten View Post
    If only those racist villagers are coerced enough it'll be fine
    Correct. If these people would only back up their claims with hard proof, I'm sure the whole situation would soon be resolved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    Defending one's way of life is a matter of instinct, gut reaction. Often, people can't rephrase things like this very well. PC has literally taken many of the words we'd need out of our mouths so that we literally are incapable of speaking against the ruling ideology - one of its main purposes, if you reread your Orwell.
    It isn't the way they phrase them, it is the lack of conclusive evidence by which they wish to condemn them that marks them out as the "racists".

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    Many in the political classes hate people who have done well for themselves and seek to punish them at every turn.
    True. On the other hand the ones who have done well for themselves are the ones who are first to deny others the attempt to the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    But see my comments on the critical mass issue. Why do they have to be treated as a special group?
    They shouldn't have to. I will be the first to say that they shouldn't, but one look at their history will tell you why they have resolved to become a "special group". One which can be solved by "one special group" breaking down the barriers as the other "special group" does the same.
    "The only way to get smarter is to play a smarter opponent."

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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    Correct. If these people would only back up their claims with hard proof, I'm sure the whole situation would soon be resolved.
    All that the locals need to prove is that a significant proportion of them do not desire this 'Traveller Site' to open. That, they have already done. Why should it open now, once the foundation is ready for years of ill feeling? I don't like how you want to compell people, or worse - change people.

    What's the difference between this and the psychological reconditioning we talked about elsewhere concerning the BBC? The people have spoken, do-gooders and bureaucrats hoped they'd speak differently, but that was not to be. The correct response here should be to give up.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Patrioten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    Very true, but coming from a nationalist, for you to say that they should be so quick to shed their ancestral roots is very disconcerting.
    In the forming of our respective ethnic groups, many different communities have blended together throughout history to form a blend which we recognize as a particular ehtnic group. Certain elements, distinctive to their respective area, have not been assimilated in the same way and have stood outside of the folk and society throughout history. Gypsies/travellers/tattare are one of those elements. They have been unable to do so because the population did not accept them into their communities and the gypsies in turn didn't want to become part of their communities and instead remain living separated from the rest of society. The point being and the one I was making, they are too alien in their ways and too antisocial in their behaviour to get along with the dominant ethnic groups of Europe.

    Sorry, Patrioten. The Gypsies on one side of the English channel are not the same as the ones on my side of the channel.
    Their situation and reputation is remarkably similar I must say.

    Racism, sensationalism, lies, unfounded stories, etc, etc.., yep! They all can be negative.
    Yes, same as with the other foreign elements, it's all lies.

    Forcing foreigners and foreign cultures upon a community is precisely what is wrong with the mulicult experiment. The wellbeing of the own native group should be the top priority at all times, not social engineering and forcing these communities to accept negative changes to their conditions of living for the benefit of these foreigners.

  5. #45
    Senior Member BeornWulfWer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    All that the locals need to prove is that a significant proportion of them do not desire this 'Traveller Site' to open. That, they have already done. Why should it open now, once the foundation is ready for years of ill feeling? I don't like how you want to compell people, or worse - change people.
    Firstly, Oswiu, I vehemently oppose you alluding to me believing that people should be compelled or "changed" to accommodate people they are initially resisting towards just for the sake of the matter.
    I am desiring the conclusion of one group of our people to happily co-exist with another lot of our people.

    Change will have to be considered. Change can result in positive results, too. A compelling education of our people will have to obviously be conducted. No longer can we sit by as Roger the Rag writes yet more unfounded and absolute lies about one group to pander to the ignorance of yet another group.

    For a man of your calibre to not recognise the need to calmly and collectively evaluate the truth amongst the lies is disconcerting if I may say so without offence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    What's the difference between this and the psychological reconditioning we talked about elsewhere concerning the BBC?
    One is blatant and obvious. The other is discreet with its truths and ladled with ignorance.

    I will let you decide which one I think is which.



    Quote Originally Posted by Patrioten View Post
    Their situation and reputation is remarkably similar I must say.
    As the papers would say; yes, it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrioten View Post
    Yes, same as with the other foreign elements, it's all lies.
    Yet with the other "foreign elements", in England at least, we can see the truth by the screaming mad Mullahs, or the raving black man with the exceptionally high crime rates; with the ghettoisation of areas no-go for natives of this soil, etc, etc.., the list is endless.

    But each once can be backed up to the hilt with hard facts, and even harder statistical evidence. Something this case cannot. Not on the side of the opposer's, anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrioten View Post
    Forcing foreigners and foreign cultures upon a community is precisely what is wrong with the mulicult experiment.
    I agree. Yet the British Gypsy is no different to the myriad of native "cultures" that reside within Britain.
    The difference being that this one has been prolonged for so long in being assimilated that perhaps an end is not viable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrioten View Post
    The wellbeing of the own native group should be the top priority at all times, not social engineering and forcing these communities to accept negative changes to their conditions of living for the benefit of these foreigners.
    I can't see how land not belonging to the communities can be subjected to the intolerance.
    And again with the negative accusation. How is it negative beyond the successful settlement and assimilation?
    "The only way to get smarter is to play a smarter opponent."

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    Senior Member Patrioten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    As the papers would say; yes, it is.
    So their reputation over there is a product of the 20th century paper?

    Yet with the other "foreign elements", in England at least, we can see the truth by the screaming mad Mullahs, or the raving black man with the exceptionally high crime rates; with the ghettoisation of areas no-go for natives of this soil, etc, etc.., the list is endless.

    But each once can be backed up to the hilt with hard facts, and even harder statistical evidence. Something this case cannot. Not on the side of the opposer's, anyway.
    If the government doesn't make statistics based on ethnic origin, it's hard to provide statistics for something which is common knowledge amongst a population.

    I agree. Yet the British Gypsy is no different to the myriad of native "cultures" that reside within Britain.
    The difference being that this one has been prolonged for so long in being assimilated that perhaps an end is not viable.
    They are different from these groups, otherwise they wouldn't have the reputation they have.

    I can't see how land not belonging to the communities can be subjected to the intolerance.
    And again with the negative accusation. How is it negative beyond the successful settlement and assimilation?
    You imagine that there wont be any negative effects, just as multiculturalists do. You assume that things will go well, that's what multiculturalism is based on, assumptions that are not grounded in human experience. Human experience tells us that allowing gypsies/travellers/tattare to live near a community leads to problems. Human experience and common knowledge tells us it is a bad idea. You might consider these people to be your kin for whatever reason, but I'd reckon most of your British kin don't and never have (same as here and everywhere else), otherwise there wouldn't be any problems, and therein lies the problem.

    When the authorities disregard these concerns and go ahead with their social engineering schemes, and the concerns start to manifest themselves for real in these communities, there's no help to be found for the community. The authorities wont accept any responsibility for making the decision to place these people there, the people there will be on their own. That's how multiculturalism works. When the theories and scenarios thought up inside individual minds are tested in reality and fail, noone accepts responsibility and the decision is not revoked. The authorities instead cover up the problems and tell the people living there that they are at fault.

    This is why people should be extremely wary (refuse is the right word here) every time the authorities want to introduce changes in the social order of this type in any community. The people living there will have to accept all the risk and suffer all the consequences, and noone will be accountable for it. Things will probably never be the same again, and worse off than before. Social engineering is about applying theory to reality, trying to make reality fit pre-concieved theories which is always a tricky business. When dealing with human societies and social groups/bonds/cultures and communities, human experience needs to be consulted and the theory adapted to fit reality. If you consult human experience, there is seldom any need for theory anyhow as it is clear what works and what doesn't (experience and old-wisdom, tried tested and true, is plentiful in this area). We know what makes a community function properly, and we know what destroys such a community.

    The consequences, the costs, of your imagination and assumptions versus my common sense-human experience approach or "prejudice" as you might call it, are uneven. If you are mistaken, then that means the end of a community. If I am mistaken, it has no negative effect on the community which is able to maintain its social order and conditions of living, and the travellers stay where they are. That is why conservatism is better than utopianism. You know what you have, but not what you get.

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    Senior Member BeornWulfWer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrioten View Post
    So their reputation over there is a product of the 20th century paper?
    Past all the hype? Yes!

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrioten View Post
    If the government doesn't make statistics based on ethnic origin, it's hard to provide statistics for something which is common knowledge amongst a population.
    The government make statistics by ethnicity. We're due one soon, I believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrioten View Post
    They are different from these groups, otherwise they wouldn't have the reputation they have.
    Hmm? Yes and no. Difference doesn't necessarily imply the reputation in this scenario.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrioten View Post
    You imagine that there wont be any negative effects
    I expect negative effects alright. Just as any assimilation between native stock with differing cultures will do, and always have done.


    Quote Originally Posted by Patrioten View Post
    Human experience tells us that allowing gypsies/travellers/tattare to live near a community leads to problems. Human experience and common knowledge tells us it is a bad idea.
    IN the case of the British Gypsies, past having no statistics to peruse, no large scale personal previous to experiences with Gypsies and only the papers to go on; where is this "experience" that can shape the fortunes of both come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrioten View Post
    You might consider these people to be your kin for whatever reason, but I'd reckon most of your British kin don't and never have
    You'd be surprised.
    Last edited by BeornWulfWer; Saturday, January 31st, 2009 at 04:35 AM. Reason: .
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    Yes, that is racism also. One that as you can see, is blurring the eyes of many concerning the Gypsies of Britain.
    No, I'm not seeing it that way (that it's blurring the eyes). Because if the Gypsies were innocent little angels and had absolutely no fault in the interaction with the locals, then it would be unfounded. But the 'racism' is justified in my view if there are good reasons not to want the peoples there.

    Sorry, you misunderstood my point. The point I was making was the "common local disturbances" are matters of money, local interaction, loud music or animal concerns.
    Local interaction with Gypsies.

    Concerns that you will find in any community with or without Gypsies.
    Why is it so many peoples from so many areas of England complain about the Gypsies however? I'm not thinking it's a conspiracy or racist plot.

    True, and one that I will always stand by. In the case of Gypsies, the stereotypes might well be true, but then the proof is still to be proffered in ascertaining whether that label is justified or not.

    Show me condemning statistical evidence that crime rockets to abnormal levels with the introduction of Gypsies.
    Some of the statistical informations I saw on news casts. I'm not having any sites handy right now. But even then, you'll just say the articles are sensationalist propaganda. Well, sensationalist propaganda corroborated with the views of people who lived near Gypsy communities and experienced them on the own skin seem to coincide. Hmm...

    Labels are guidelines. Guidelines can and do get broken. Mass hysteria usually sets them in stone, and it takes calm, collected appraisals of the facts to counter them.
    I'm asking once more, why should the risk be taken? Are there evidence which shows introducing Gypsies massly into communities results in a better environment?

    Trust me. If Germans moved en-masse to a community near me, the locals would soon let them now their feelings. Regardless of their contributions to society.
    I was giving an example from my local community. Just replace the Germans with another European ethnic group which acts productively in your country and see if there is same animosity as with Gypsies.

    Yes, morons and toffs will always interfere with common sense.
    Didn't you say common sense isn't enough to base actions on?

    Perhaps the other several thousand locals will ignore the <alleged> racists <alleged> and work hard to integrate with their own genetic folk.
    Why should it always be the hosts who have to make hard efforts to integrate with the foreign guests?

    Even if they're genetically the same, but I doubt because I've seen pictures and news covers about these people. Has there been a genetic testing to show they're of the same stock as the British? Because some of them look a little bit dubious in my view and I've been reading the discriminations which existed in the past times against them were done because they looked different. Even if they're genetically the same, so what? If a family member becomes a criminal, the rest of the family should be obligated to keep him in the house and live with his antisocial behaviour? They should risk becoming victims because it's their genetic kin? Hmm, I don't think they should.

    The Gypsies should be the ones who should make the efforts. But they aren't seem to be doing it because the people complain about them everywhere. It makes it to the news here even.

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    It seems not all English people are as tolerant and as pro-Gypsy as BeornWulfWer.

    90 per cent of planning applications for Gypsies and Travellers’ sites are turned down at the first hearing to avoid angering local residents.
    http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/story...rycode=6502752

    Their "kin":

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    Quote Originally Posted by Todesengel View Post
    It seems not all English people are as tolerant and as pro-Gypsy as BeornWulfWer.

    Words fail me as to how you think that shows that others are intolerant of Gypsies.

    As for the picture, was that supposed to be relevant?
    "The only way to get smarter is to play a smarter opponent."

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