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Thread: In Praise of Italians

  1. #21
    Senior Member CordeliaforLear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychonaut View Post
    What makes you think the Etruscans were Semites? The Etruscan language belongs to the Aegean (Tyrrhenian) family, not the Semitic. There is a Semitic hypothesis as to the language's origins, but there is no consensus whether that or the Indo-European, Luvian, Albanian or Hungarian hypotheses are correct. Also, genetic studies of Etruscan skeletons do not seem to indicate a Semitic origin.
    The Etruscan hypothesis goes back to Herodotus' tales about groups identified now as Etruscans of semitic Middle Eastern discent, but it would be today's equivalent of calling all Germans Vandals or Slavs Skythians, etc.

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    Senior Member rainman's Avatar
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    Hmm I guess you're right we don't know for sure (the ethnic origins of etruscans). I do know for sure many modern Italians have obvious semetic traits. I do think though that there are old paintings or whatever of Roman royalty that show Semetic traits aparently mixed with Aryan. Given that at those points in time the royalty only mixed heavily with etruscans (as they didn't mix with commoners) from what we know it seems to lend to the theory.

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    Senior Member CordeliaforLear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rainman View Post
    Hmm I guess you're right we don't know for sure (the ethnic origins of etruscans). I do know for sure many modern Italians have obvious semetic traits. I do think though that there are old paintings or whatever of Roman royalty that show Semetic traits aparently mixed with Aryan. Given that at those points in time the royalty only mixed heavily with etruscans (as they didn't mix with commoners) from what we know it seems to lend to the theory.
    I think I know the ones you are talking about. That being said, Rome was an empire.

    The racial politics of an empire are antithetical to that of the tribe.

    The genetic diffusion of Rome spanned all over the Mediterranean world, and therefore it is hard to classify a 'Roman' during the latter period as 'Italian' or even European, per se.

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    Senior Member Psychonaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rainman View Post
    I do think though that there are old paintings or whatever of Roman royalty that show Semetic traits aparently mixed with Aryan.
    I'd like to see what you're talking about. Are you talking about Armenoids or Arabids? There's more Dinaric influence in Italy than you can shake a stick at, but I'd like to see what it is that you're claiming is distinctly Semitic.
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    What happened to all the migrant populations in Italy? There has been always been major migrations from the Adriatic, the Ionian Sea and the Mediterranean in ancient Rome.


    And Psych, there are pictures and memorials.





    Artemidorus was a Greek Writer, who born on the west coast of Anatolia. And no he's not the Turk.



    How can you guys buy your own bull? If the Italians were descended from a group of Germanic Lombards, than how come more half of them are dark skinned, hook nosed and foreign in appearance?
    Surely if they descended from the Lombards, they would be indistinguishable from modern Bavarians and Austrians, no?
    What happened in Greece was probably even worse in Rome. At least the Greeks had the idea of a pure race. The Romans were the opposite, having intermarried with Sabine women in the beginning and giving citizenship to the children born from relationships between freedman and slaves. Yep, all you have had to do was buy a Somalid or an Illyrian woman at the block, make passionate love and you had a ''100% Roman son". How coy...


    But what did you expect? These people had little idea about race, intelligence and genetics. And of course they paid the price. While some historians invent excuses for the collapse of the Roman (Western) Empire, the real reason (however politically incorrect...) is that everyone got fat and lazy off socialism and the population had been dumb down to two digit IQ's with African and Mediterranean blood.


    Ironically history tends to repeat itself. We are the modern day Circeros, aware of the problems in society, know that the United States will collapse at it's current rate, but nevertheless powerless to enact change.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Psychonaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatest View Post
    What happened to all the migrant populations in Italy? There has been always been major migrations from the Adriatic, the Ionian Sea and the Mediterranean in ancient Rome.

    How can you guys buy your own bull? If the Italians were descended from a group of Germanic Lombards, than how come more half of them are dark skinned, hook nosed and foreign in appearance?
    Thanks for the pic TG. I don't know about the rest of the guys, but the only thing I'm questioning was the allegation that there was a sizable Semitic influence in Italy. If we look at the genetics of the Italian peninsula, we get something like this:

    E3b1a 11.6%
    E3b1b 1.4%
    E3b1c 0.5%
    G2 8.7%
    I1a 2.9%
    I1b* 1.0%
    I1b1 1.4%
    I1b2 2.9%
    J1 4.3%
    J2a 15.9%
    J2b 1.9%
    K2 3.9%
    L 1.0%
    Q 1.0%
    R1a 2.9%
    R1b1b 1.0%
    R1b1c 34.3%
    R1b1c6 0.5%
    R1b1c9 1.0%
    R1b1c10 1.4%
    R2 0.5%

    Now, the so-called Semitic haplogroup is J2, and even if we were to suppose that all of those individuals who carry that group do so because of Semitic ancestry, that's 17.8%. However, the current theory as to the prominence of R2 in Italy is that it is indicative of Greek ancestry rather than Semitic. Compare a map of the distribution of J2 with a map of Greek settlements in Italy:



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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychonaut View Post
    I don't know about the rest of the guys, but the only thing I'm questioning was the allegation that there was a sizable Semitic influence in Italy.
    It is not so much important whether the Etruscans (which btw. called themselves "Rasna" meaning the chosen ones - much like the Jews) are Semitic or not, what counts is that they most likely are an important source of Greek/Roman (and European) degeneration.

    Quote Originally Posted by A. Grünwedel, Tusca (1922)
    A [Etruscan] nation which is ready to paint wall pictures over the entrances of graves like the two scenes in the Tomba dei Tori, which permits itself to write such filth in graves and paintings like those in the Golini grave, and to cover sarcophagi with the most repulsive scenes (I need mention only the sarcophagus of Chiusi), to place into one’s hands representations of the dead as in the text of the Pulenana papyrus roll, to cover toilet articles with the most hair raising obscenities, parades the most despicable human degeneracy as its national legacy and religious persuasion.
    Where the Etruscans emerged, nations crumbled from within, much like with Jews.
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

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    Senior Member Psychonaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    It is not so much important whether the Etruscans (which btw. called themselves "Rasna" meaning the chosen ones - much like the Jews) are Semitic or not, what counts is that they most likely are an important source of Greek/Roman (and European) degeneration.
    Whatever man. I wasn't getting into anything of the sort. I was merely addressing one specific point: that of a Semitic presence in Italy.
    "Ocean is more ancient than the mountains, and freighted with the memories and the dreams of Time."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychonaut View Post
    I was merely addressing one specific point: that of a Semitic presence in Italy.
    And the conclusion is that we are not sure, right?
    So let's examine other angles, like behavior, and Etruscans are very much Semitic in this regard.
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    Where the Etruscans emerged, nations crumbled from within, much like with Jews.
    Correlation does not mean causation. Cum hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy (which would almost be correct to call Propter hoc ergo cum hoc ), a special case thereof. Just because similar things happen in different places, doesn't mean that the same people are at work.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatest View Post
    What happened to all the migrant populations in Italy? There has been always been major migrations from the Adriatic, the Ionian Sea and the Mediterranean in ancient Rome.
    However, evidence must oft be treated with care. That the south of Italy, or at best Italy to the Rubicon, i.e. Roman Italy, will have a more Greek, Arabic or even African pointer would only stand to reason, as it cannot be excluded that the rich lady of a house may have enjoyed themselves with a slave.

    However even if that were the case, and the high incidence of J2 in South Italy were to be based upon this, it would not mean that Italians as a people came from Asia Minor, the Orient or Africa --- it would only attribute a pointer towards these areas but not settle the immediate origin of Italians.

    However, in all fairness it would have to be said, that the very same pointer be, like Psychonaut said, be attributable mostly due to Greek influence. The overwhelming majority of slaves, especially literate slaves rather than farmhands, would have come from Greece, and if intermixture at a great level were to proven, then the lady of the house would be more likely to sleep with their children's Greek teacher than with the lad who entertained the plough. And of course, in those cases, it would have been less obvious to her noble husband that his child was not his, due to a less alien look of the Greeks.

    More Greek influence, and likely the lion's share of it, however, would be attributable, I think, mostly due to the Byzantine reign over South Italy, when many Byzantine citizens will have migrated across.

    Artemidorus was a Greek Writer, who born on the west coast of Anatolia. And no he's not the Turk.
    Pictures of olden times are an inaccurate pointer towards phenotype.

    Whenever they were drawn by the artist, the person depicted would have had some personal taste as to how they would be portrayed, and the artist would have had his personal way to highlight the very same subject's features. Even on pictures of Napoleon --- some would see him as an Alpinid, others show clear Nordid influence.

    And pigment in the Mediterranean is an even worser pointer, his darker tan could be attributable to the sun. I actually kid you not --- look at Egyptian paintings, the woman, who did not spend their entire day in the sun, were depicted with a much lighter skin tone than the men. To us it remains indistinguishable at this day whether that were to reflect this fact, or a beauty ideal which cherished the lighter skin of European women.

    If the Italians were descended from a group of Germanic Lombards, than how come more half of them are dark skinned, hook nosed and foreign in appearance?
    The north is descended from the Lombards, not the South. If you have even been to Italy you will see a clear divide between how northern Italians and how southern Italians look, talk, act etc. ... the area where the Lombards settled, even before that, never was Italy --- during the Roman times, it was Cisalpine Gaul.

    Surely if they descended from the Lombards, they would be indistinguishable from modern Bavarians and Austrians, no?
    The later descend from the tribe of the Bavarii, the former from the tribe of the Longobardi. Your argument would claim that if the Swedish Geat and the Anglo-Saxon did not look the same, then they couldn't both have a Germanic pointer.

    The Romans were the opposite, having intermarried with Sabine women in the beginning
    The Sabines were a neighbouring tribe. That'd be much like a man of the Chatti marrying a woman of the Hermunduri. To see neighbouring tribes of a similar constituent area intermarry was not only practice --- but to call it racial mixture on a great scale, that'd be a proposition that is to be treated with care.

    and giving citizenship to the children born from relationships between freedman and slaves.
    That'd only be common sense. A Freedman could not become a citizen of Rome himself, only his children could. Since Freedmen were also ex-slaves, I suppose if a Freedman had fallen in love whilst still enslaved with a slave woman he met at the same estate, that it'd be common sense that it would also extend to them. Children between Slaves and Slaves born when both were slaves would still be a slave child, and could only earn the status of a Freedman, but never of a citizen.

    Whether that is preferable remains a question --- and one would be inclined to say no. In today's times it's of equal common sense if the child of one naturalised Turk and one non-naturalised Turk receives the citizenship that the child of two naturalised Turks receives. Preferable is probably neither.

    Sure the issue of children from Freedman/Slave relationships becoming citizens is bad enough, but that children from Freedman/Freedman relationships would become citizens is only marginally different.

    If you meant Roman citizen/Slave relationships ... well, then at least be precise in the terms you use.

    Yep, all you have had to do was buy a Somalid or an Illyrian woman at the block, make passionate love and you had a ''100% Roman son". How coy...
    Ah so if the issue is Roman Citizen + Slave = Roman Citizen ... well if that's the issue. Well, what are you going to suggest in that instance in this day and age?

    Imagine you were from Norway and had a child with a woman from Somalia, you lived in Norway. Norwegian citizen? Somali citizen? None because it is mixed?

    It becomes a bit of an issue that children will have to receive one of their parents' citizenships in a practical point. If you feel that mixed children shall not have your citizenship --- it's bold to assumethat the other nation would accept the mixed child of theirs.

    It's a perfect case of giving the child an identity crisis on the basis of the parents' selfishness. Stating that it would get neither citizenship could stop caring parents from miscegenating as easily, but well ... where to draw the line?

    In today's time an example of a "non-issue mixture" (because same ethnicity) would be my maternal grandparents: Gran = German citizen, Grandpa = Austrian citizen. Obviously my mother had to receive one, she actually received both. That should obviously be sanctioned, same ethnicity, meta-ethnicity, language, culture, you name it.

    An "issue mixture" would of course be some Norwegian/Somali one ... but would the same apply to Norwegian/Dutch children? Norwegian/Polish children? What about Norwegian/Belgian children, if you're using the "Germanic" counter, divide them down the middle?

    And in old times: Roman/Greek forbidden but Roman/Etruscan allowed? Roman/Cisalpine Gallian allowed, but Roman/Transalpine Gallian forbidden? Not that easy a line to draw.

    It all sounds so easy but isn't in reality, and I'm afraid to say that the Roman, yes, probably took the chicken way out that our society also does in saying: "Right, it's our citizen that sleeps with the slave, it's our state that cares for it".

    And, yes, the question of which of their parent states should care for mixed children is obviously also a question which we have to deal with in the future.
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