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Thread: Putinist Russia and Germanic Interests

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    The US is killing us right now, not 64 years ago. Our first priority is to secure the ability to annihilate our competitors, which ultimately ensures our independent existence, the only kind of existence that can last. Why do we always debate which power should dominate us, based on their imagined merit and past conduct? It's pathetic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    We must remember that the German army were no saints either
    Why would we want to do that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauke Haien View Post
    Why do we always debate which power should dominate us, based on their imagined merit and past conduct? It's pathetic.
    No one should dominate us, neither Obama-USA nor Putin-Russia. But if it´d come hard on hard I´d trust my life more on US-Americans (most of Germanic or Celtic heritage) than Russans (slavs). Anyway, the best thing is to not have to rely on any foreign power. And personally, I´ve very less trust in Russian politics. They´re following a subtle agenda and aren´t pro-Germanic in any way.

    "Judge of your natural character by what you do in your dreams" - Ralph Waldo Emerson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauke Haien View Post
    Why would we want to do that?
    For the sake of truth and rationality.

    Whilst one-sided argumentation is very effective in whipping up hatred of the other side, me as wannabe intellectual prefer to understand the nuances of history; cause and effect. Ignorance may be useful at times, but I myself prefer open-mindedness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Whilst one-sided argumentation is very effective in whipping up hatred of the other side,
    The enemy does not need any help there, but we do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    me as wannabe intellectual prefer to understand the nuances of history; cause and effect.
    The cause was military defeat and the effects are known. To present all of it as "terrible revenge" is another propaganda coup, with the usual "we must not forget..." as a center piece. When Obama came to Berlin for his Napoleonic victory parade, German television showed a documentary about US-FRG relations. When the Holocaust came up, they essentially said: "We must not forget that many Americans are Jews and since we killed so many of them, they [Americans] had a right to be an angry occupying power... "

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauke Haien View Post
    The enemy does not need any help there, but we do.
    True. Russia is not Germany's enemy in the modern world, though. Schroeder understood this well. A partnership with Russia is beneficial for both Germany and Russia. The staunchest opponents of Russo-German partnership are the Poles and the Baltic states (and the Jews).

    Hitler also understood the strategic importance of an alliance with Russia. What was different back then, was the ideology of the Soviet Union -- communism. Modern Russia tends toward nationalism and a revival of its Orthodox Christian heritage -- and also its ancestral ties to Europe. Putin has so many times tried to highlight this in his speeches.

    The cause was military defeat and the effects are known. To present all of it as "terrible revenge" is another propaganda coup, with the usual "we must not forget..." as a center piece. When Obama came to Berlin for his Napoleonic victory parade, German television showed a documentary about US-FRG relations. When the Holocaust came up, they essentially said: "We must not forget that many Americans are Jews and since we killed so many of them, they [Americans] had a right to be an angry occupying power... "
    Well I am absolutely in agreement with you on this. My words should not be interpreted as favouring more guilt for Germans. Germany has held itself guilty for too long already -- way too long.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    Russian attitudes and morality are supreme, only challenged by western infiltration via MTV etc. Russia has large pockets of nonRussians in it, but largely on their traditional territories, with sizeable Russian populations - often majorities within ethnic Autonomous Republics.
    As mentioned so many times before: The Russian (imperialistic) model is assimilationistic. Assimilationism is even worse than multiculturalism from a preservationist point of view. All major Russian cities - including their Suburban space - consist of a heterogeneous conglomerate of different ethnic groups.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    Russian official propaganda does not promote race mixing, scorn for past glories, nihilistic materialism, childlessness, hedonism or unwholesome entertainment. That is the clear difference.
    Where is the de facto difference? Both Western and Russian *propaganda* promote tolerance in a multi-ethnic environment. The celebration of what you call *past glories* in a Russian context, is not a celebration of Slavic meta-ethnicity, but of State imperialism and its never-ending expansion of Russian territories etc. I have asked you again and again if you can provide any kind of credible evidence or a *sign of the times* supporting your view that Putinism promotes a kind of *white* - or at least Slavic - preservationism. So far you have not been able or willing to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    They are very odd people, in my experience. They are denigrated in the Russian press
    They are to my knowledge the only prominent group advocating ethnic/racial nationalism in Russia. Therefore, it is hardly surprising that they are *odd people* and *denigrated in the Russian press*. Their message is absurd in a Russian context, since Russian nationalism has always been imperialistic, not ethnic or racial. The very concept of race is foreign to their national character, united as they are by empire, not by blood.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Russia is not Germanys enemy in the modern world, though. Schroeder understood this well. A partnership with Russia is beneficial for both Germany and Russia.
    Nonsense. Schroeder is a retard, probably THE most corrupt and ignorant chancellor in German history. The antitype of a German nationalist or even patriot, he is not much more than an errand boy for Russian interests in Europe and a disgrace to the German nation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Hitler also understood the strategic importance of an alliance with Russia. What was different back then, was the ideology of the Soviet Union -- communism.
    AH:*Unless other peoples, beginning with the Vikings, had imported some rudiments of organisation into Russian humanity, the Russians would still be living like rabbits.*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    We must remember that the German army were no saints either -- the Barbarossa invasion of Russia was particularly brutal on the Russian peasants. More Russians died in WW2 than any other nationality -- at the hands of German soldiers.
    40 years of communism made sure ever German here remembered that. In fact Germans repeated this phrase, "we must remember" so many times it became like prayer. It's a process of mind manipulation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauke Haien View Post
    The US is killing us right now, not 64 years ago. Our first priority is to secure the ability to annihilate our competitors, which ultimately ensures our independent existence, the only kind of existence that can last.
    Aye, and this works for England. This is exactly the reasoning too, of the Russian ruling elite at present. To be on good relations with a state that has already achieved this would not hurt our attempts, I'm sure.
    Why do we always debate which power should dominate us, based on their imagined merit and past conduct? It's pathetic.
    Why do people think entente with Russia would necessarily lead to them dominating us? That's what I don't get. Are we that weak?
    Quote Originally Posted by Hauke
    Why would we want to do that? {Remember nasty things Germans did}
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    For the sake of truth and rationality.

    Whilst one-sided argumentation is very effective in whipping up hatred of the other side, me as wannabe intellectual prefer to understand the nuances of history; cause and effect. Ignorance may be useful at times, but I myself prefer open-mindedness.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hauke Haien View Post
    The enemy does not need any help there, but we do.
    THere's a very interesting point here. What should be the German and Germanic in general attitude to history?

    Loki takes the familiar truth for truth's sake approach. Hauke takes a strategic pragmatic one, mindful of our current needs. What is more appropriate in our present rather desperate situation?

    Hauke doesn't want our people crippled by 'guilt', and so seeks to doctor history. Or perhaps just alter the focus of it? Question is, would you get away with it? Such tinkering is effective when you already control the state, and I have grave doubts about how useful it would be when our opponents are in an ideal position to refute all we say.

    And yet 'the Truth will out'. I like Thomas Carlyle's quote on the inevitability of this : "And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."

    If we try to deceive ourselves, our self deception will only too readily be pointed out to us. If we made this an important part of our world view, the whole will come crumbling down if this pillar is taken away. I reckon that we should make ourselves as inassailable as possible. That means knowing all the bad that's been done us, and by us, and learning from both. No more stupid empires riding roughshod over those who, lowly as they seem, will be able to draw on their resentment with great effect when the boot's again on the other foot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vingolf View Post
    As mentioned so many times before: The Russian (imperialistic) model is assimilationistic. Assimilationism is even worse than multiculturalism from a preservationist point of view.
    Golfy, a Mordvin or Karelian assimilates, but he is still a 'bloody Chukonets' at the end of the day. There's a deep inbuilt scorn for assimilation in Russia. Outwardly it can seem to 'work', but the antagonism is often there still. You get fraying around the edges, I don't deny it, and there are always people in whom certain instincts are less strong, but over all their national mindset on these matters is healthier than our own.
    Where is the de facto difference? Both Western and Russian *propaganda* promote tolerance in a multi-ethnic environment.
    One says 'don't slit the throat of your neighbour', the other says 'if your neighbour slits your throat it's your own fault for having oppressed him, give him your daughter in tribute'. I see a big difference in these propaganda of 'toleration'.
    The celebration of what you call *past glories* in a Russian context, is not a celebration of Slavic meta-ethnicity, but of State imperialism and its never-ending expansion of Russian territories etc.
    Coming from a fellow post Imperial nation, I understand them a little better in this respect perhaps (where the hell are you from again?). We were a big force in the world, and it was achieved by the effort of our nation. The history of imperialism can be useful to nationalists, if we're careful not to repeat it and continue to suffer its worse aspects.
    I have asked you again and again if you can provide any kind of credible evidence or a *sign of the times* supporting your view that Putinism promotes a kind of *white* - or at least Slavic - preservationism. So far you have not been able or willing to do so.
    It doesn't, as it doesn't really need to at the present time. The nation concerned still has something of a natural instinct for this, without the Government needing to intervene.
    They are to my knowledge the only prominent group advocating ethnic/racial nationalism in Russia. Therefore, it is hardly surprising that they are *odd people* and *denigrated in the Russian press*.
    I said they were 'denigrated' as allies or agents of western puppet masters, which has some truth in it.
    AH:*Unless other peoples, beginning with the Vikings, had imported some rudiments of organisation into Russian humanity, the Russians would still be living like rabbits.*
    Dolfy was not always so on the mark, especially with Slavs. He had a bit of a nasty chip on his shoulder at times. And he paid for it. And Germany paid for it and still does. Let's not go down that STUPID road again, bitte.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrie View Post
    No one should dominate us, neither Obama-USA nor Putin-Russia. But if it´d come hard on hard I´d trust my life more on US-Americans (most of Germanic or Celtic heritage) than Russans (slavs). Anyway, the best thing is to not have to rely on any foreign power. And personally, I´ve very less trust in Russian politics. They´re following a subtle agenda and aren´t pro-Germanic in any way.
    Nothing could be more subtle than the USA agenda, in its unspoken aims and crafty machinations. It acts as though it weren't acting at all. CeltoGermanic majorities are largely irrelevant in the USA, as a result of their taming by an elite that largely despises them. Russia doesn't want to change us.

    It seems to me that Germans are prisoners of their traditional hatred of the Slavs. The War didn't help, nor did millions of brutal rapes and murders in living memory, but I think it must be deeper than that. My city was blown to bits in the War, My Grandparents were lucky to get through it all, but many weren't, and yet I don't have much ill feeling for this. You might say this was nothing in comparison to what Germans went through under Occupation, but it's still not insignificant. I suppose that the lasting effects of Karl der Gross's eastern policy are playing a role still. Germans then retook old eastern territories, not merely as conquerors, but as those who believed the new subjects were filthy Heathens. The lingering unpleasant notion of Christian vs Pagan superiority over a people who were not too dissimilar to preRoman Germanics of an earlier period is one I hope we can get over in the years to come. There is hope, I can even bring myself to forget old English/French rivalry in the face of a new common threat!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrie View Post
    No one should dominate us, neither Obama-USA nor Putin-Russia. But if it´d come hard on hard I´d trust my life more on US-Americans (most of Germanic or Celtic heritage) than Russans (slavs). Anyway, the best thing is to not have to rely on any foreign power. And personally, I´ve very less trust in Russian politics. They´re following a subtle agenda and aren´t pro-Germanic in any way.
    Do you believe that there is some kind of inborn blood-feature in Germanic blood that will let Americans choose our interests in stead of their own neo-con/liberal agenda?

    Furthermore, I am closer to Slavs then the the one who is running America now. At least Putin is a real conservative and not a liberal wanker like Bush.

    Funny though how you find that Russian politics aren't pro-germanic in any way, that implies that the American agenda is at least pro-germanic in some ways. McDo, Coca-cola, Israel, Kosovo, Turkey in the EU, Cyprus. That's quite far from the interests of Europe.

    EDIT: I meant banker, of course, not wanker. With the Zionist-Corporate America it's all so confusing.
    "La vie est la vie, c'est-à-dire un combat, pour une nation comme pour un homme"
    Charles de Gaulle


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    Where were the "Celto-Germanic genes" in two world wars? Ah ya, supporting the Jews. Fighting against Germans. Now the "Celto-Germanic genes" are supporting Israel and keep their military occupation in Germany. The FRG is a puppet regime of the Americans in Germany.



    Germany shouldn't fight in bloody foreign wars, whether it's for USrael or Russia.

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