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Thread: Putinist Russia and Germanic Interests

  1. #11
    Senior Member SwordOfTheVistula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatest View Post
    Ukraine is a joke. It's an incompetent steel-banana republic that's the second poorest country in Europe in terms of PC/GDP. What the heck... You have some of the best land in Europe, more steel and coal you know what to do with, tariffs on Russian gas and proximity to European markets... Must be the Tatar-Caucasian blood that you seen in most Ukrainians
    It's a holdover of socialist policy. The entire country wouldn't be 'unable to pay the gas bill' if gas distribution wasn't centralized.
    Contact Congress on immigration
    Contact Congress to reject banker bailout
    "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." --Ben Franklin

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    Senior Member Rozenstorm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neophyte View Post
    I would not be that categorical about Russia if I were you. It is true that we share some common enemies and adversaries, but to say that they are our friends is to overstate the case. If Russia has an anti-Turkey-in-the-EU line it is to weaken Turkey in order to get concessions regarding naval access to the Mediterranian and to improve its standing in the turkmen countries in Central Asia.

    For the time being our interests might align, but that will not last for ever, or very long.
    Perhaps you're not getting the picture... Geo-politics isn't about friends, it's about interests.

    "We have no eternal allies and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are perpetual and eternal and those interests it is our duty to follow."
    Lord Palmerston, British Foreign Secretary, 1848

    Quote Originally Posted by Vingolf View Post
    How? We have interests on several levels (geopolitics, macro-economy, security, meta-ethnicity etc.).
    Exactly, on economical base we could stand against the US (note, not the American people), we could secure our borders, we could fight together against multiculturalism,.... Why do you think Putin's view on those matters are different? Besides, it's not what makes you different why you should work together but on base of common grounds. If you differ on certain viewpoints you can always go your own way. That's the whole thing of geo-politics, isn't it. Powerblocks.

    Serbia, Nato and Turkey are all examples of the classical Russian grand strategy: Divide et impera, i.e. basically an anti-European/anti-Western strategy.
    Bollocks, Russia always has had a cultural-ethnical bond with the Slavic states of Europe and a bad bound with the states that threat it, whether it be Muslim Turkey or multicultural Austria-Hungary. Divide et impera? Who is actually working on that, if not the Zionist American neo-con government?

    A *real conservative* would never go for an alliance with Russia. Neither would Moscow.
    Who's a real conservative for you? A neo-con, like Bush or Cheney? Those are liberals hell bent on economic, cultural and military world domination. Conservatives, yeah right.
    "La vie est la vie, c'est-à-dire un combat, pour une nation comme pour un homme"
    Charles de Gaulle


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    Quote Originally Posted by Neophyte View Post
    But that would be to fall for the old divide and conquer strategy. Turning Germany against the other EU/NATO countries would allow the Russians to act more freely and would only serve to strengthen them in areas where it would be detrimental to us. If Western Europe were to stand united it could at least play USA and Russia against each other more effectively.

    What we lack is what we can call "commercial security", the ability to secure and transport here the basic necessities of life: energy, food and other raw materials. What we need it to secure our own supplies of energy, like the oil from North Africa and the Caspian Sea, not to grow even more dependent on Russian controlled assets. So I am afraid that for us to "play the Russian card" will only make us weaker in the long term, dependent on Russian sources of energy.

    In respect to Turkey, even if we do not want them in the EU we should still work with them in order to bar Russian naval access to the Mediterranian and the Suez canal. If we can bottle up Gibraltar, Suez and the Dardanelles, we will in effect have turned that sea to a European lake. And that is something that our "friends" in Moscow would find very troubling, which would give us something to barter with. That is a strategy that seems much more promising than to let the Russians play divide and conquer with us. Also, having naval access to the Black Sea would allow us to project force into that region, another bargaining chip.

    As I have stated elsewhere: Europe needs the ability to project naval power across the globe.
    All we would need is a temporary alliance until we have attained enough territories and have a large enough population and stable enough economy to not be threatened by more than a couple of powers in the world. Currently, the Germanic nations are rather insignificant and have threats on all sides. Having an alliance with Russia would secure our aims in the East and would limit our enemies to the West.

    Without modern Western influence, the decay of Europe would be halted and all that would be required would be to reverse the decadence, which is much easier when you are not threatened by the rest of Europe for such policies.

    At the moment, the Russian government is the most ideologically similar to our views and is sufficient powerful in military, diplomatic and economic terms to combat EU and NATO. After that, we will not need Russia will we!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SwordOfTheVistula View Post
    Until a significant number of new nuclear power plants come online, they are going to be dependent on foreign energy sources.
    Key word: diversification. Ca. 25% of the EU gas supply comes from Russia.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7817536.stm

    Quote Originally Posted by SwordOfTheVistula View Post
    Russia was often pro-Germanic in history, particuarly in the 18th and 19th centuries during which they participated in the partition of Poland, defeated Napoleon, and sent in army in to save the Austro-Hungarian monarchy from the 1848 revolutions.
    Depends what you mean by *pro-Germanic*. Throughout much of its history, Russia has swayed between two possibilities: it has either seen itself as Pluto in the Western solar system, very far from the center but still a part of it, or - leaving that orbit entirely, creating its own Moscow-centered system. The period you just mentioned was characterized by the *Plutonian variant*, followed by the Moscow-centered system during the Soviet period. After the Yeltsin-period (Plutonian), we are now witnessing a setback or return to the anti-Western power game strategy.

    http://www.foreignaffairs.org/200607...-the-west.html

    But even in the period you just mentioned, when Russia was dominated and ruled by Germanic elites, Russian geopolitics, culture, mindset, civilizational compass and instincts (at the grassroot level) were fundamentally anti-Western. Western cultural influence was shallow, only penetrating elite society.

    Quote Originally Posted by SwordOfTheVistula View Post
    With the dissolution of the USSR, NATO is no longer a pro-Germanic entity but has become an instrument of the EU orientated towards supporting western slavic nations (Poland and Ukraine) and small former members of the USSR against Russia.
    In other words, supporting western slavic nations is not pro-Germanic, whereas supporting an (eastern Slavic) anti-Western nation is??

    http://www.carnegieendowment.org/pub...19480&prog=zru

    Quote Originally Posted by Rozenstorm View Post
    Exactly, on economical base we could stand against the US (note, not the American people), we could secure our borders, we could fight together against multiculturalism,.... Why do you think Putin\'s view on those matters are different?
    Who are *we*? Russia will never *fight multiculturalism*, due to the fact that its empire has always been - and will remain - multi-ethnic/multi-cultural. Russian nationalism is imperialistic, not ethnic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rozenstorm View Post
    Besides, its not what makes you different why you should work together but on base of common grounds.
    True, but where are the common grounds in this case?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rozenstorm View Post
    Bollocks, Russia always has had a cultural-ethnical bond with the Slavic states of Europe and a bad bound with the states that threat it, whether it be Muslim Turkey or multicultural Austria-Hungary.
    *Always* is an exaggeration. Pan-Slavistic ideologies were born in the 19th century. Russia has had large Muslim minorities for centuries within its borders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rozenstorm View Post
    Whos a real conservative for you? A neo-con, like Bush or Cheney? Those are liberals hell bent on economic, cultural and military world domination. Conservatives, yeah right.
    Exactly. Pseudo-Conservatives like Bush were basically pro-Russian.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Rozenstorm's Avatar
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    Who are *we*? Russia will never *fight multiculturalism*, due to the fact that its empire has always been - and will remain - multi-ethnic/multi-cultural. Russian nationalism is imperialistic, not ethnic.
    Russia stands for state-nationalism, now, I'm opposed to such actions, but that is not relevant in geo-politics. Furthermore, immigrants are not welcome in Russia, not by the people and not by the politcal elite. That's much more of what I can say from us.

    True, but where are the common grounds in this case?
    Securing energy, combining economic forces, opposing Zionist interventionism in Israel, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, the entire middle East actually, Turkey, Serbia, etc. In conreto: building a power block against the US-block. European hegemony once more.

    *Always* is an exaggeration. Pan-Slavistic ideologies were born in the 19th century. Russia has had large Muslim minorities for centuries within its borders.
    What do you mean? The Prussian and German Junkers always found an ally in Russia and vica versa. That was by the way, one of the top reasons against Barbarossa in Nazi-Germany.


    Exactly. Pseudo-Conservatives like Bush were basically pro-Russian.
    Yeah, under the liberal-capitalist US-lapdog Yeltsin maybe. Thanks for the oligarchs... Anyway, now that Russia has ridden itself from these liberal bloodsucking leeches and has got back on an independent track, America has become hostile against Russia, once more, using the NATO as it's vessel.
    "La vie est la vie, c'est-à-dire un combat, pour une nation comme pour un homme"
    Charles de Gaulle


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    Russia has the largest islamic minority in Europe, and this minority is constantly rising. Furthermore, Russia is a very multicultural country! Just look at the Mongoloids and the many other ethnic minorities within their nation.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Russia

    "Islam is currently the second most widely professed religion in the Russian Federation. According to the most recent estimates by the R&F Agency, there are more than 20 million officially self-identified Muslims in Russia, a number that has risen by 40% in the last 15 years" -

    Wladimir Putin as well as the general Russian leadership aren´t doing anything against their rise so I find it hilarious to think that Russia could be a partner for Germanic countries. It´s a trap! Putin and the Russians aren´t European or even Germanic preservationists. They are as worse as the US-American government when it comes to preserve ethnical and cultural purity.
    The only reason Western Europe needs Russia is because of the energy issue, especially gas and oil. We should become independent from them. To rely on Russian help would be the same as waiting for a gangster to backstab you.

    "Judge of your natural character by what you do in your dreams" - Ralph Waldo Emerson

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    Senior Member Rozenstorm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrie View Post
    Russia has the largest islamic minority in Europe, and this minority is constantly rising. Furthermore, Russia is a very multicultural country! Just look at the Mongoloids and the many other ethnic minorities within their naton

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Russia

    "Islam is currently the second most widely professed religion in the Russian Federation. According to the most recent estimates by the R&F Agency, there are more than 20 million officially self-identified Muslims in Russia, a number that has risen by 40% in the last 15 years"

    Wladimir Putin and his leadership aren´t doing anything against their rise so I find it hilarious to think that Russia could be a positive partner for Germanic countries. It´s a trap. Putin and the Russians aren´t European or even Germanic preservationists. They are as worse as the US-American government when it comes to preserve ethnical and cultural purity.
    The only reason Western Euope needs Russia is because of the Energy issue, especially gas and oil. We should become independent from them.


    Here we go again, "Islam is all powerful", "watch out for the Islam", bla bla, "they will conquer the world". Perhaps 1000 years ago, that was a bit true. Now, they mean nothing. Not economical, not technical, not political, not military. So, if they, in bizaroworld, take over power in a Western nation, it would be out of weakness of our own political elite, not out of the strength of Muslims. Now, where I'm getting at is this. Even though Russia is a fairly multi-ethnical state with a large amount of Muslims, they have the least influence on the working of their nation or their inhabitants. Putin et al. doesn't get played with like our moronic own politicians. If the Muslims in Chechnya whine he throws a couple of bombs and tanks at them and they keep quiet. if immigrants don't play nice in Russia, they get lynched or they get kicked out. As for homo's... Well, they better stay of the streets in Russia.
    "La vie est la vie, c'est-à-dire un combat, pour une nation comme pour un homme"
    Charles de Gaulle


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    Putin is fluent in Tatar and is rumored to be of Veg or Volga Tatar
    background.
    In Central Europe there is a concrete idea of a Slavic look (Alpinid). But in Eastern Europe, you have everyone from Corded Nordids, Caucasians (from the Middle East) and Tatars all identifying as Russian...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rozenstorm View Post
    Russia stands for state-nationalism, now, I m opposed to such actions, but that is not relevant in geo-politics.
    What do you mean by *such actions*?! We now agree that Russian nationalism is statism, not ethnic or racial nationalism. Since the Russian state is not a nation state in the European sense, Russian statism is basically imperialism. Could you kindly explain why/how Russian imperialism, partly rooted in anti-Western xenophobia and meta-ethnic antagonism (even hatred and envy) should serve our interests in any sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rozenstorm View Post
    Furthermore, immigrants are not welcome in Russia, not by the people and not by the politcal elite.
    Nonsense. Russia is open to immigration on a large scale, especially from the former Soviet empire and other neighbouring states (China, for instance).

    Quote Originally Posted by Rozenstorm View Post
    Securing energy, combining economic forces, opposing Zionist interventionism in Israel, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, the entire middle East actually, Turkey, Serbia, etc.
    Securing energy via Russia is obviously not an option, since Gazprom is not a private company, but an integrated part of the Russian neo-imperialist project. What you call *Zionist interventionism* should be regarded as a result of internal affairs within the Germanic world (Jewish activism is toxic throughout the western world, and remains significant even in Russia).

    Quote Originally Posted by Rozenstorm View Post
    In conreto: building a power block against the US-block. European hegemony once more.
    First, why should *we* (= Europeans?) build a power block against the US - a country with 100 - 120 million Germanic citizens? What makes you think Russia would help to strengthen Europe when it has never done so before?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rozenstorm View Post
    Yeah, under the liberal-capitalist US-lapdog Yeltsin maybe.
    As far as I remember, Bush became president in 2001 - more than a year after Yeltsin retired... Bush outsmarted himself and leagued together with Russia in the first years of his presidency.

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    Senior Member Neophyte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rozenstorm View Post
    Securing energy, combining economic forces, opposing Zionist interventionism in Israel, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, the entire middle East actually, Turkey, Serbia, etc. In conreto: building a power block against the US-block. European hegemony once more.
    Sorry, but I do not see the connection between a Russian power block and European hegemony. The name of the game this time is natural resources, and helping the Russians to dominate what is vital for Europe is not going to make Europe stronger.

    If there is any European interest in a Russian power block it would be to play the US, Russia and China against each other in e.g. Central Asia, creating a balance between them and then joining a weaker side in exchange for concessions. But then I would also have to remind the audience about what Machiavelli wrote about success won through the arms of other nations.

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