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Thread: Charlemagne: Hero or Villain?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauke Haien View Post
    In present times, if there was a chance to regain the self-determination of the German people by torching the United States, then it should be taken by the German people. The big old book of White Retardism and its fantasies of internationalist unity have no authority over Germanics.
    Isolate, destabilize and eliminate. ................

  2. #32
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    I agree that any Kinslaying is a horrible thing, and that it is most unfortunate that so many Saxons bled at the hands of the Franks. However, in that regard Charlemagne and the Franks were hardly un-Germanic. The old Germanic tribes had already been slaying one and another and usurping each other's lands for centuries.

    One tribe that had an especially bad reputation was... the Saxons.

    Before the Saxons came into major conflict with the Franks they already had a bloody history of conquering and practically enslaving minor Germanic tribes (such as the Angrivarii and the Bructeri). They had a very strict and inhumane caste system. At the top were the nobles who mostly comprised the original Saxons of Holstein. Next in line were the freemen. Nowhere in the Germanic lands was the social distance between the nobles and the freemen as great as in the Saxon lands. Freemen were not much better off than those of the third caste: the bondsmen, who for the most part were subjugated native Germanics. (I'm not even talking about the slaves.) In Saxon society, marrying above your caste would get you the death penalty. Saxon laws in general were a lot stricter than those in most other Germanic lands, and penalties were a lot harsher as well.

    When the Saxons 'met' the Franks, one of the first things they did was to form an alliance and attack and destroy the Kingdom of the Thuringii. After that several armed conflicts arose between the Franks and the Saxons, and were settled by peace treaties. Yet as soon as the Franks would remove their armies, the Saxons would break the treaty and invade, plunder and harry Frankish lands. Time and again. Ultimately, a thoroughly fed up Charlemagne decided to deal with the Saxons once and for all, and break their spirit. We all know what happened with the Irminsul.

    Charlemagne became ruthless towards the Saxons and issued forced conversion to Christanity. He became known as the Butcher of Saxons, whereupon his own advisor, Alcuin of York, an abbot, urged him to only convert the Saxons by persuasion, not by the sword. I seriously doubt, however, that he really had 4,500 Saxons beheaded, as the story goes, since there is only one (problematic) document pointing to this, with no supporting evidence (archeological or otherwise).

    To make a long story short: if one must refer to Charlemagne and the Franks as ruthless kinslayers, one is obliged to call the Saxons the same. And one can easily say that the Frankish nobles were much kinder to those lower in standing than the Saxons ever were.

    As far as I'm concerned, all of this is enough reason to give Charlemagne and the Franks the benefit of the doubt. Add to that their cultural efforts, and I do not hesitate to laude Charlemagne.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator X View Post
    a traitor for chopping down Irminsul and brutally converting his own people?
    no way to justify this
    The coward believes he will live forever
    If he holds back in the battle,
    But in old age he shall have no peace
    Though spears have spared his limbs

  4. #34
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    Hauke Haien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anlef View Post
    To make a long story short: if one must refer to Charlemagne and the Franks as ruthless kinslayers, one is obliged to call the Saxons the same.
    That would be incorrect in both cases, since the concept of kinslaying is limited to comparatively close blood kin and does not even extend to the whole of the social unit. Those outside are not entitled to anything and may be killed, Germanic or not. Christian and WN fantasies of universal brotherhood and perpetual peace are not relevant to this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anlef View Post
    Before the Saxons came into major conflict with the Franks they already had a bloody history of conquering and practically enslaving minor Germanic tribes (such as the Angrivarii and the Bructeri). They had a very strict and inhumane caste system.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anlef View Post
    And one can easily say that the Frankish nobles were much kinder to those lower in standing than the Saxons ever were.
    That only speaks in favour of the Saxons; at least to those who reject the values you use to judge theirs.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauke Haien View Post
    That would be incorrect in both cases, since the concept of kinslaying is limited to comparatively close blood kin and does not even extend to the whole of the social unit. Those outside are not entitled to anything and may be killed, Germanic or not. Christian and WN fantasies of universal brotherhood and perpetual peace are not relevant to this.
    Indeed, if you do not agree with the premise that Charlemagne and the Franks were kinslayers for killing fellow Germanics, then neither will you agree that Saxons were kinslayers for killing fellow Germanics. (Which was exactly my point.)

    However, I must disagree with your definition of kinslaying. I believe attacking and subjugating a fellow Germanic tribe, and in the process killing some and reducing the rest to bondsman-status (and probably slave-status as well), is exactly what kinslaying is. So in my opinion, yes, Charlemagne was a kinslayer, but the Saxons were just as much kinslayers, if not more.

    To deny that definition (and dismiss it as the fruit of Christian or WN fantasies) seems to be wholly at odds with the very foundation of this online community: Germanic brotherhood.

    That only speaks in favour of the Saxons; at least to those who reject the values you use to judge theirs.
    I'm not sure what you're saying. Could you please elaborate?

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anlef View Post
    However, I must disagree with your definition of kinslaying.
    My definition aims to describe it as it was understood at the time. Corrections are more helpful in achieving that than disagreements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anlef View Post
    So in my opinion, yes, Charlemagne was a kinslayer, but the Saxons were just as much kinslayers, if not more.
    It is alright for you to believe that, but you are innovating here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anlef View Post
    To deny that definition (and dismiss it as the fruit of Christian or WN fantasies) seems to be wholly at odds with the very foundation of this online community: Germanic brotherhood.
    An online community differs profoundly from a real community, more so than viruses, firewalls and networks differ from their real-life counterparts. A forum can aid in the extended inward contemplation of the outer world, but it does not replace it nor does it replace the world. It is wholly unreasonable to expect that any discussion of the Germanic past, present and future must double as a discussion of Skadi Forum. Obviously, when I am discussing world views I mean for them to be used for viewing the world, not Skadi's navel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anlef View Post
    I'm not sure what you're saying. Could you please elaborate?
    Your description of Saxon actions and organising principles gives no indication that they were in violation of their own values, and one may postulate that they were indeed not. Excusing their defeat or celebrating it based on a comparison of values will not do; it is victory that is paramount for the success and propagation of their values, achieved through their proper understanding and application. The Saxons had not equipped themselves with the ability to gain victory against their enemies and that is their only moral failure.

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