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Thread: The Origin of the Goths (F. Kortlandt)

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    Scythia and Romania overlap. Schytians and Gets seem to be from the same kin. Conserved genealogies confirm this view. Today's Dobrudja (shore of the Black Sea, at the Danube Delta) was called Scythia Minor or Getic Desert.
    I believe that a major difference should be made between 'migration' of peoples (villages, family ties, toponimics, rural technology and language) and armies walk, where I suspect the Gets(Goths, Dacians, Vlachs) appear to be proeminent before the Hun rule and before the mongol invasions. Their relics custom and genealogy obsession seems to have been routed by the Christian Church (both Catholic and Orthodox) towards adoration of Christian Saints, not national patriarchs or local kings-as in the Thracian custom; relics are compulsory today in order to declare somebody a saint also. The religious address is quite obvious in Jordannes work - nothing is said about the Gothic religion !

    I suspect from Trajan's Column that eastern neighbours - Slavs (or ancestors) were there in 101-106 AD at least at the warriors level:
    - wind 5 b is depicting Roxolani(Russlani) knights attacking Romans (Armenians also claim a Thracian origin today; a lot of data, such as the papal mitra and high priests clothes may be related to the Armenian heritage also)

    - wind 15 c is presenting a local mister wearing clothing close to the Kossaks', different from Dacians' costume.


    Yva Momatiuk and John Eastcott
    National Geographic, vol 159, No. 1, p. 104, January 1981

    “When these so-called mountain lovers took the hale- meadows –away, some older shepherds died from sorrow”, my old Fanek Szlaga told us. His bold, dark face brings to mind Wallachian shepherds who came here in olden times, following the Carpathians range.
    Their pastoral methods, ustensils, vocabulary, and music survived centuries and shaped the life that Franek knew best.
    He recalled spring marches up the valleys with sheep, dogs, and music; he spoke of living in low huts, and the tang of cheese smoked over the fire. It was freedom, and he loved it.


  2. #22
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    Re: Getica: The Origins and Deeds of the Goths

    Goths, Sarmatians, and Huns

    In the Highlander series we are told that Darius, an almost-2000-year old Immortal priest, was once one of the great generals, and Grayson was his student and second-in-command. Having made a vow to march from the Ural Mountains to the sea, Darius led the Goths to Rome, and could have led his armies across Europe and ruled for a thousand years. But he killed a Holy Man at the gates of Paris and suddenly he changed. He spared the city, sent his armies away, and spent the rest of his life working for peace from Holy Ground. The Watcher Chronicles CD provides some additional information about Darius' early life: Born in 50 CE in a nomad tent east of the Urals, First Death in 95 CE, leading his tribe against the Germanic hordes, Race: Goth. The CD also states that Darius was one of the great Gothic Warlords.

    The real Goths were a "Germanic horde" themselves, and in the first century of the Common Era, when Darius is said to have been born on the steppes, the Goths were living in what is now northern Poland, on the Baltic Sea and along the River Vistula. According to the Getica of Jordanes, a 6th-century Goth historian, the Goths originated on the "island" of Scandza, but it is generally agreed that he was referring to the peninsula where present-day Norway and Sweden are located. Jordanes tells us that the Goths crossed the Baltic under the leadership of their king, Berig, and formed a settlement on its southern shores which they named Gothiscandza.

    Tacitus, in his Germania, places them there in the first century CE. No archaeological evidence has been found to confirm that the Goths originated in Scandinavia, (although an island in the Baltic near Sweden bears the name of Gotland). But what evidence there is confirms that they were living in northern Poland at the time indicated by Tacitus.

    Over the next two centuries, the Goths, along with other Germanic groups, gradually migrated southeast, roughly following the Amber Routes, seeking new land for settlement. Eventually, in about 200 CE, they reached the Ukraine (which Jordanes calls Scythia or Oium) and the steppes north of the Black Sea, where they soon became the dominant power. However, the Goths never lived anywhere close to the Urals. Their easternmost settlements were on the coast of the Sea of Azov, some 800 miles west of the Urals, and they did not even arrive in the Black Sea region until at least 150 years after Darius was born, and more than a century after he was said to have had his first death fighting the "Germanic hordes". (The Highlander novel Shadow of Obsession, which came out in May 1998, attempts to correct the problem of his birthplace by ignoring all the references in the TV series and CD to nomadic tribes and the Ural Mountains. In the novel, Darius is a Goth from the North).

    But those who prefer the original version may want to know who was living on the steppes east of the Urals in the first century CE if not the Goths? Enter an Iranian-speaking nomadic people, the Sarmatians (aka Sauromatians or Sarmatae), who began moving into the southern Russian steppes in the 5th century BCE, and displaced or absorbed the Scythians, another Iranian-speaking nomadic people who had occupied these lands before them.

    Like the Scythians, the Sarmatians had come from the Central-Asian steppes and were herders, hunters and accomplished fighters on horseback. They lived in felt tents, carried their goods in wagons, and decorated their horses, wagons and bodies with gold animal-style ornaments. They fought with powerful compound reflex bows made of wood reinforced with pieces of bone or horn, long swords, lances, and axes. They carried shields, and wore scale armor made of overlapping metal plates sewn on leather. Sarmatian clothing included trousers, shirts, padded coats, round or pointed leather caps, and soft leather boots. Also like the Scythians, the Sarmatians usually buried their dead beneath earthen mounds called kurgans.

    Sarmatian women were formidable warriors in their own right, and rode into battle like the men. Ctesias, an ancient Greek historian, says that the women of the Saka or Sacian tribes were also warriors. Tombs of some of these warrior women have been found, which contain weapons, armor, and the bones of horses, just like those of male warriors. It is believed that these women are the real Amazons described by ancient historians, and one legend documented by Herodotus says that the Sarmatian race itself descended from Scythian men who mated with these Amazons. Some of them were priestesses as well as warriors, judging from the altars and other ritual objects found in their burial places.

    As a group, the Sarmatians were not a unified people, but a number of separate tribes which shared common customs and a pastoral way of life. The territory they covered was vast, stretching from the Danube in the west back into Central Asia, and they were also related to the eastern tribes collectively known as the Saka or Sacians, who once lived east of the Caspian near the Aral Sea on the Amu Darya and Syr Darya rivers. Driven out of these lands by the Yueh Chih around 250 BC, some of the Saka entered northern India and others, known as the Parni, migrated southwest and established the Parthian kingdom in northern Iran. The Parthians, who developed an armored cavalry, served as a buffer between the Persians and other steppe nomads.

    The last Sarmatian tribe to arrive on the steppes east of the Urals were the Alans (aka Alani or Halani). They would have been in the right place at the right time to have been Darius' tribe. Interestingly enough, on the way to the Urals the Alans had first tried to enter the Parthian lands of northern Iran. According to the CD, an Immortal named Ahasuerus the Parthian was Darius' first teacher. We are given no information about him apart from the name, and we do not know how or when he met Darius. However, Ahasuerus also happens to have been the Biblical name of the Persian king who made Esther the Israelite his Queen, aka Xerxes I. Xerxes ruled from 486-465 BCE, and was the son of Darius the Great. Xerxes and his son, also named Darius, were assassinated by Artabanus, commander of the palace guard. If we suppose Xerxes was an Immortal, it is likely that he might have had to leave the Persian court after this "death", and ended up among the Parthian tribes. It is also possible that he gave our Darius his name, after his father and murdered son.

    The Sarmatians, including the Alans, were in control of the southern Russian steppes when the Goths came out of the northwest in the 3rd century CE. The Goths conquered the Sarmatians, but were heavily influenced by their nomadic lifestyle and culture, and intermarried with them. The Goths became skilled horsemen and horsebreeders themselves, and adopted Sarmatian-style clothing and ornament to such a degree that outsiders had trouble telling the Goths and Sarmatians apart. They even resembled each other physically. Roman historian Ammianus Marcellinus described the Alans as "tall and handsome, their hair inclines to blond; by the ferocity of their gaze they inspire dread. They delight in danger and warfare." (Sound like anyone we know?)

    This same description could also be applied to the Germanic tribes. So it is possible to imagine that the nomad Darius might have joined one of the Goth tribes during this period, and if his Watcher was an outsider, he might not have realized that Darius was not originally a Goth. Interestingly enough, Ammianus also says of the Alans that they worshipped a War God who was represented by a sword stuck into the earth.

    The Romans along the borders of the Roman Empire soon became aware of their new neighbors to the northeast, as the Goths frequently joined other tribes raiding across the frontier in Dacia (Romania). They also seized ships and raided the Black Sea coast, Asia Minor, parts of Greece, and Cyprus. The Romans responded to the new threat with military force, and repulsed the attacks, but gradually they were forced to abandon part of Dacia north of the Danube to the Goths in 271. (The CD tells that the Immortal Grayson (aka Claudianus), had his first death in Dacia, trampled beneath the hooves of Goth horsemen during a raid in 365, after which he was found by Darius and became his student and second-in-command.)

    The relationship between the Romans and the Goths was not completely adversarial, however. Trade and cultural exchange went on between them, and some of the individual Gothic tribes agreed to serve as foederati, auxilliary troops in the Roman army, for which the tribes received payment in gold and grain. This was a common practice for the Romans, who frequently used one group of barbarians to help them control or subdue another. To the Romans, every non-Roman was a barbarian, and therefore inferior, but even barbarians had their uses, and many barbarians attained high rank and position in the Roman army.

    In addition to turning the barbarian "problem" into part of the solution by incorporating them into the army, the Romans also encouraged them to convert to Christianity. To that end, Ulfila (aka Wulfila, "Little Wolf"), son of a Cappadocian slavewoman and a Goth father, was consecrated as a bishop in Constantinople in 341 CE, and sent to bring The Word to his people. At that time and place, The Word happened to be Arian Christianity, a 3rd-century doctrine conceived by one Arius of Alexandria, which taught that Jesus was not One with God the Father, but was a created being. (It has nothing to do with the term "Aryan" which is another word for the early race of Indo-Europeans from which many diverse groups including the Goths, the steppe nomads, and the Persians were descended. The doctrine of Arius was later considered a heresy.)

    Ulfila was an educated man who invented a Gothic alphabet (based on Greek, but containing some Latin and runic elements) and used it to translate the Bible into the Gothic vernacular. However the Goths did not appreciate his efforts on behalf of their souls, and sent Ulfila packing in 383 CE. Most of the Goths did finally convert to Arianism after they had been settled in the Balkans inside the borders of the Empire.

    The story of Darius as told in Highlander makes it sound as if he and the Goths swept into Europe bent on conquering all the lands between the Urals and the Atlantic, but the truth was that the Goths came into the Empire as fugitives trying to escape the Huns. The Huns were a fierce nomadic people from Asia, and they had been making their way slowly across the steppes for several centuries. A few had already reached the Pontic steppes, but not enough to be considered a threat. In 375, a large army of Huns attacked and defeated the Alans, the Sarmatian tribe who lived northeast of the Goths. Some of the Goths made an effort defend themselves, but soon realized they were fighting a losing battle, so in 376 many of them loaded up the wagons, headed for the Danube, and petitioned the Romans for admittance to the Empire.

    According to Jordanes, long before the Huns arrived, the Goths were already divided into two peoples, the Ostrogoths (East Goths) and Visigoths (West Goths) each ruled by a royal family, the Amal and the Balthi respectively, and for many years, historians took his statement at face value. But now historians believe that at the time the Huns attacked in 375, there were actually six or more Gothic tribes, each with its own leaders, and that the arrival of the Huns was what created the division of the Goths into two peoples. The Goths who fled from the Huns and entered the Roman Empire became the Visigoths and those who remained behind and became subjects of the Huns were designated the Ostrogoths.

    But even among these two groups tribal divisions remained. The Goths who showed up at the Danube in 376 were composed of people from two tribes, the Tervingi and the Greuthungi, under separate leaders. The Romans, who did not want to risk letting such a large number of barbarians in at once, ferried the Tervingi across, but left the Greuthungi on the north bank. The refugee Goths were not particularly welcome or well-treated by the Romans, and Ammianus says that they were starved and cheated by their hosts. They soon revolted, and while the Romans were busy dealing with the Tervingi, the Greuthungi forced their way across the Danube almost unopposed and later joined the Tervingi.

    The war went on for six years, during which the Goths, with the help of some of the Alans, managed to win a decisive victory over the Romans in 378 at Adrianople, where they massacred the Emperor Valens and two-thirds of his army. The cavalry of the Alans played a decisive part in the victory. The new Emperor Theodosius took up the fight, and the war went on until 382. Unable to completely subdue the Goths, the Romans made a treaty with them which granted them land for settlement and allowed them to live under their own laws in exhange for military service when required.

    Theodosius used his Gothic foederati in 387 and in 392/93 against the usurpers Maximus and Eugenius. The Goths suffered heavy losses in both campaigns, and felt the Romans were deliberately trying to weaken them by attrition. They revolted again in 395, led by Alaric I (who is most probably the real historic figure on whom Darius was originally based). Alaric was a Goth noble, one of the Balthi family, and in his youth he had received military training from the Romans. Later he commanded Gothic troops under Flavius Stilicho, commander-in-chief of the Roman armies in the West, and it is possible that the two were friends, but Alaric remained loyal to his own people. (He and Stilicho would face each other numerous times on the battlefield as enemies.) Alaric became one the most powerful leaders among the Gothic tribes, and with the help of his brother-in-law Athaulf, he eventually won out over several rivals to become the leader of all the Gothic tribes which had been settled within the Empire under the treaty of 382. Thus Alaric created a Visigothic alliance which would last beyond his lifetime, and which eventually would form the basis of the Visigothic Kingdom in Gaul and Spain.

    It must be noted that Alaric was at no time the leader of all the Goths, or even half of the Goths. Besides the Ostrogoths who were still under Hunnic domination, and would eventually carve out their own kingdom in Italy, there were numerous independent groups of Goths, such as the Goths of Radagaisus, who invaded Italy in 405-6 CE. (Stilicho defeated and captured Radagaisus, and stuck his head on a pole. Some of his surviving troops would later join Alaric after their families were massacred by the Romans.)

    The Visigothic army is estimated to have had around 25,000-30,000 fighting men, (the Goths of Radagaisus and other angry barbarian soldiers swelled the ranks to around 40,000 by the time Alaric attacked Rome in 410), but not all the men in the army were Visigoths. Some were Alans and there were even some Huns and other peoples in their ranks. Even including women and children, the entire Visigothic population is estimated to have been around 100,000 people. But Alaric's achievement in uniting even some of the Gothic tribes under his leadership and holding them together was remarkable nevertheless. Alaric was indeed a great Gothic Warlord.

    Alaric ruled his alliance of Visigoths for fifteen years, first raiding Greece and Macedonia, and then invading Italy several times. He sacked Rome on August 24, 410, looting the city for three days, and taking as a hostage the half-sister of the Roman Emperor. The Visigoths burned some buildings but spared the churches, and actually committed far less mayhem than they could have under the circumstances. In Pharoah's Daughter, the Roman Immortal Marcus Constantine credits Darius as being the man who brought the Goths to Rome, and Alaric is not mentioned in the TV series at all, which gives the impression that we are meant to see Darius as the real historic figure Alaric.

    However, the 1998 novel Shadow of Obsession ignores the series on this point and treats Darius and Alaric as two different people. In the novel, Darius is an ally of Alaric, and the leader of an independent warband who has ambitions of forming a kingdom of his own. As the novel correctly points out, Alaric's ambitions did not quite extend to overrunning the Empire all the way to the Atlantic and ruling for a thousand years, as Darius planned to do. Although it is said Alaric's brother-in-law Athaulf spoke of turning "Romania" (the Roman Empire) into "Gothia", the reality was that even at their greatest strength, they did not have a sufficient military force to achieve such a goal. And throughout his campaigns against the Romans, even after his victory at the Eternal City, Alaric's actual demands were fairly modest. He wanted an annual payment in gold for himself and his followers, land for settlement, and a generalship the Roman army for himself. Far from wishing to destroy the Empire, Alaric seemed to want to become a mover and shaker within it, like his former commander, the powerful Stilicho, who was half-Roman, half-Vandal by birth.

    Alaric never got what he wanted, apart from a regional appointment as general in Illyricum, some bribes from the Romans, and the booty from his raids. He was still waiting for a big settlement from the Romans when he died of illness at age 40 in Cosentia (Cosenza, Italy) not long after taking Rome. Athaulf then assumed leadership of the Visigoths. He is said to have buried Alaric in the riverbed of the Basentus (those who performed the burial were killed afterwards to protect the secret of the grave's location). Originally Alaric had planned to lead the Visigoths to North Africa after taking Rome, but a lack of ships prevented Athaulf from carrying out the plan.

    Instead, Athaulf went north, crossing into Gaul in 412 and taking Narbonne, Toulouse and Bordeaux by 413. Athaulf was assassinated in Spain in 415, but in 418, one of his successors, Theoderic, made a treaty with the Romans which granted them the Garonne Valley in southern Gaul in return for a military alliance with the Romans. Under the alliance, the Visigoths helped subdue the Vandals, Sueves and Alans who had gone there after crossing the Rhine and raiding across northern Europe in 406-408. Some of the Visigoths settled in Spain, and they also expanded their holdings in southern Gaul. In 451, they helped Aetius defeat Attila the Hun at The Battle of Chalons on the Catalaunian Plains. The Visigothic Kingdom in southern Gaul lasted until the early 6th century, when their holdings were seized by the Franks. In 711, the invasion of the Moors ended the Visigothic Kingdom in Spain.

    While the Visigoths won a place for themselves within the Roman Empire, and formed a kingdom that lasted almost 300 years, they never came close to ruling Europe. Nor did they attack Paris, as Darius is said to have done in the series. They remained in southern Gaul and Spain, while the Franks ruled the northern half of the province and made Paris their capital.

    The Huns were actually a far more fearsome lot than the Visigoths whom they had run off the Black Sea steppes in 376. At that time, the Huns were without centralized leadership, but by 432 CE they had gathered a huge army which included troops from the numerous peoples they had previously conquered, including the Ostrogoths and Alans, and were united under a single leader named Rugila. As they had done with the Visigoths and other barbarian groups, the Romans hired Hunnic warriors as auxilliary troops and paid them a yearly tribute, partly for services rendered and partly as a bribe to keep them from raiding the provinces.

    When Rugila died in 434, his nephews Attila and Bleda took over. After the death of Bleda in 445 (some say by murder), Attila assumed sole leadership of the Huns. For a number of years, Attila was content with the tribute money paid by the Eastern Roman Emperor, but in 450, the new emperor Marcian came into power and refused to ante up any more protection money. Attila decided to try his luck in the Western Empire. In 451, at the head of a great army, (the size of the Hunnic army has been variously estimated at between 300,000 and 700,000) he crossed the Rhine and swept across Europe looting, pillaging, and burning.

    The Roman army under Flavius Aetius met him in Gaul, and with the help of an alliance of Visigoths, Alans, Burgundians, and even some Huns, Aetius defeated Attila at the Battle of Chalons (believed to have taken place north of Troyes). This did not quite put a stop to Attila, who next invaded Italy and threatened Rome, but his invasion had lost much of its momentum. Famine and pestilence also beset the Hunnic army and took its toll. After Attila died in his sleep after his wedding night in 453, the leadership of the Huns passed to his sons, and the Hunnic army soon fell to pieces.

    Although it would seem that the legend of Darius is loosely based on, or at least linked to, the history of Alaric and the Visigoths, I also believe that Attila and the Huns may also have served as an inspiration to the writers of Highlander. Darius was specifically identified as a Goth, but the description of his sweep across Europe into Gaul in the series and CD sounds a good deal more like the Hunnic invasion of 451 (even though the Huns never attacked Paris either. Legend says that they were turned away by the prayers of St. Genevieve). After all, the Huns were the ones who drove all the other barbarians, including the Visigoths, to flee across the borders of the Empire. Also, the rapid dissolution of the Hunnic army after the loss of its leader sounds like what happened after Darius gave up war and sent his armies away. Grayson was not able to hold Darius' armies together on his own. (By contrast, the Visigoth armies remained intact after the death of Alaric).
    As for the description of Darius as a great general and a military genius, both Alaric and Attila were charismatic and powerful figures who demonstrated considerable ability as commanders. I also believe Darius' military prowess could also have been partly based on that of the great Roman generals of the 4th century, Aetius and Stilicho. Both were brilliant strategists and wielded a lot of political clout in the Western Empire. Stilicho was part barbarian himself, and Aetius spent his youth among the Visigoths and Huns as a royal hostage, taking advantage of the opportunity to learn what he could of their military tactics and customs, just as Alaric had done among the Romans.
    The portrait of Darius the great Gothic Warlord as drawn by the writers of Highlander is largely imaginary, to be sure, but it does incorporate elements of the real history of the barbarian peoples who invaded the Roman Empire and eventually brought it down. Although not a real person, an Immortal such as Darius could easily have existed during this period. He would have fit right in with the likes of Alaric and Attila. There are some discrepancies when the story of Darius is compared to real history, and the "official" sources--the series, CD, and novel, do not always agree on the details of his early life. Hey, as Duncan says to Richie in Band of Brothers, "It's only a legend." But what a memorable legend it is!
    Sources

    Bury, John Bagnell. The Invasion of Europe by the Barbarians. New York: W.W. Norton, 1967.

    Heather, Peter. The Goths. Oxford: Blackwell Publications, Ltd., 1996.
    ----------------Goths and Romans, 332-489. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1991.
    Jordanes, 6th Century. The Gothic History of Jordanes. In English with an introduction and commentary by Charles Christopher Mierow. Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1915.
    Musset, Lucien. The Germanic Invasions: The Makers of Europe AD 400-600. London: Paul Elek, 1975.
    Neason, Rebecca. Shadow of Obsession. New York: Warner Books, 1998.
    Nomads of the Eurasian Steppes in the Early Iron Age. Edited by Jeannine Davis-Kimball, Vladimir A. Bashilov, and Leonid Yablonsky. Berkeley: Zinat Press, 1995.
    Phillips, E. D. The Royal Hordes: Nomad Peoples of the Steppes. London: Thames and Hudson, 1965.
    Sulimirsky, Tadeusz. The Sarmatians. New York: Praeger, 1970.
    Todd, Malcolm. The Northern Barbarians, 100 BC-AD 300. Oxford: Basil Blackwell, 1987.
    Wolfram, Herwig. History of the Goths. Translated by Thomas J. Dunlap. New and completely revised from the 2nd German edition. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1988.

    http://www.angelfire.com/film/bookofdarius/

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    Re: Getica: The Origins and Deeds of the Goths

    It is a long post. I shall concentrate on showing that Jordannes is lying on migration from Scandza by Bedwig's sons.
    According to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwulf we have the folloowing list of kings ( I have checked and is sufficiently correct for our purpose):

    Priam (King of Troy)
    Daughter of Priam. Spouse: Memnon
    Thorburn (Tror)
    Vingener
    Hloritha
    Eiardi
    Vingethorr
    Vingener
    Moda
    Magi
    Seskef
    Bedweg
    Hwala
    Hathra (Athra)
    Itormann
    Heremod
    Scelda (Sceaf)
    Scealdea
    Beowa
    Taewa (Tecti)
    Geata ... born in 80AD

    Now, assuming that Geata is a Get (of Thracian extraction), let's examine the getic significance (translating from Romanian) of Wallhalla, Odin, Wodan and Valkiries - the mythology he brought in Scandinavia:
    Walhalla - the village Vlaha; the king Hwala(Wlaha, Vlaha, Wlacha or so) is burried there; this king gives the name of the kin; at Vlaha we may find a Valley of the Kings in the form of tumuli (burial mounds)- huge hills artificially rounded. More than 200 tombs (said 'gepidic') were found. The oldest find from 19th century are the 4 skeletons in the Mihacs garden (Mihacs is the local landowner) - actually huge tumuli of the Dacian(Getic/Gothic/Wallachian) kings http://mek.oszk.hu/02100/02109/html/17.html)

    Odin - hodina-to rest
    Wodan - the title of the king: i.e. Woievode = Voie va dau - engl. "I grant to you" and abreviated Woda.
    Walkiries - the women from Vlaha,- assisting in mourning the dead and customs that are very complicated and expensive today also. Let's remember that Get means of clean origin, observing the relics of the ancestors and keeping the genealogy and so.

    A possible tumulus in Vlaha


    Therefore, Geata-king in Denmark is dreaming at something simple : at his death, to be buried for rest (Odina) in the Valley of the Kings in his tumulus in Vlaha (Walhalla), along with his father and king (Woda); his corpse will be prepared and mourned (3 days and 3 nights- a lot of work) by the women in Vlaha (Walkiries).This dream is natural for a prince departed from Vlaha - the Genealogic connection.

    According to the Jordannes connection these words make no sense (in Scandinavia) since Hwala, son of Bedwig emigrated in Transylvania. Why should his kin in Sweden wait for burial in Transylvania and worry about Walhalla, Wodan, Walkiries and stuff ?

    Please observe that I talked about the Dacian(Wallachian/Getic/Romanian) fonems in Jordannes work in a previous post.

    I am sorry to dissappoint you about the Germanic origin of the Goths (just a scholastic mistake). The Goths (Gets) were Thracian, a very brave kin however.

    It seems that the Thracian (Getic/Dacian/Wallachian) is the most probable nationality for the Goths. I mention that the remaining shepherds and non greeks near Pella call themseves Vlachs also http://www.vlachs.gr/uk/index-uk.htm). Pella is the town of Achilles(son of Pelleus) and Alexander the Great.

    After the Dacian wars, a riot took place in 168 agaist the Romans. An inscription from 168 AD on the Somes Valley (near Vlaha) mentions a victory against the Valachs: "victo valoke" - http://mek.oszk.hu/02100/02109/html/17.html

    The Getic rulers (Wallach Woyevode if you like) were very rich people since they owned the mountains of GOLD, centered at Rosia Montana - see map. Even today there is an international company, based in Canada, "Rosia Montana Gold Corporation" which is mining in the antique site. The Romans came to Dacia for gold, obviously.

    The capital at Vlaha is strategic since it surveys the road to Rosia Montana, is situated in a fertile zone and an inexpugnable castle exists there. In antiquity its position could be central also but I guess that proximity to the gold mine was more important.

    Therefore the Geata King should have been very rich and of the most exquisite ancestry.
    Last edited by ciurchea; Sunday, May 7th, 2006 at 06:47 PM.

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    Re: Getica: The Origins and Deeds of the Goths

    Dunno if this helps or not but I found this:

    "From some indeterminate time in the early middle ages, the Latin name Dacia came to refer to Denmark (while still being used to refer to the Romanprovince, as well). Nobody seems to be exactly certain when this began, but Dudo certainly refers to "the Dacian tongue" spoken by the northmen."
    (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Dacia)

    The Little Chronicle of the Leire Kings, written in the 12th century AD speaks of Dan, king of Dacia, who reigned over the country for three years ("Erat Ergo Dan Rex in Dacia Per Triennium"). R.W.Chambers offers a very interesting footnote: Dacia = Den - Mark.

    A reexamination of the Moseley Roll document shows that there is no reference either to King Dan or to the people called Dani; the first historical mentioning of them is made much later. Dani, Dania, Denmark are recent names which have replaced the old, traditional name of Dacia.

    The arrival of the Danes from northern Scandinavia moved a part of the "Dacian" population to the territory occupied today by Holland, whose citizens still bear the name of Dutch people (pronounced very much like the Romanian word "daci") (see the Royal Dutch Oil Company, Dutch East India Company, Dutch Reformed Church, etc.).

    http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Rollo_of_Normandy

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    Re: Getica: The Origins and Deeds of the Goths

    Dealing with dynasties, the information is correct.
    Moreover enforces the interpretation that Jordannes information on ghotic imigrations is false and the reverse happened, mainly around 106 AD, when Romans lead by Emperor Trajan defeated Dacians (aka Gets aka Wallachians aka Goths).
    One of the Get King's sons emigrated (maybe a dynastic arrangement) to the western Europe. Meanwhile, some brothers of him continued the rule in their country - riots in 107 AD, 168 AD and later in 258 AD which finally led to the withdrawal of Romans out of Dacia.

    Later, the 3 Gothic (Getic, Dacian) kingdoms played important roles separatly in the History.

    However, for curiosity reasons, the title of "Woiewod of Wallachia" stayed in Transylvania until the marriage of the Clara of Dobaca to Alexander I Bassarab from Muntenia. So the title arrived in the south Romanian state in 1300AD.

    The last ruling Woievode of Wallachia was Vlad the Impaler - Dracula (1476).
    Last edited by ciurchea; Monday, May 8th, 2006 at 08:39 PM.

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    Re: Getica: The Origins and Deeds of the Goths

    One thing is clear: computer games have a better sense of continuity and breeding than an invented history. That is why in the post by my colleague fms_panzerfaust, one sees that the simulation story is closer to mine and grazny's, exactly on the controversial aspects of Jordannes paper.

    This is a novel result in the field which encourages the simulations as an investigational tool.

    Last edited by ciurchea; Tuesday, May 9th, 2006 at 09:07 PM.

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    Re: Getica: The Origins and Deeds of the Goths

    It appears that by the ancient Gets(Goths) women did fought along with men; the following is wind 4c on Trajan's column where Decebal sister died in battle:


    In order to substantiate further the gothic connection, I have posted a few pictures from the Cluj museum, pretaining to Dacia before 271 AD.
    http://download.academic.ro/muzeu/index.htm
    Last edited by ciurchea; Wednesday, May 10th, 2006 at 12:56 AM.

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    Re: Getica: The Origins and Deeds of the Goths

    Ciurchea, you say that the goths were not germanics, but in gothic-l and in academical studies the gothic language resembles a more primitive form of the language of the alemannis.
    Visit the list for more information: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/. Also here http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/8308 you can see the names of the gods in ancient heathenism. Maybe the language of the goths influenced those of the alemanni and medieval vlachs (sucessors of the gepids), as you say that the term woden originates the term voivod. I dont believe in Woden as a historical persona, but some scholars argues that he was Priam of Troy. However link dinasties back to Troy was a ancient practice: the romans and franks already do that.
    Generally I accept the relations made by Tacitus and some others with the god Hermes (through the name Irmin and most characteristics that resembles the god of knowledge), what puts my form of paganism as a hellenicized one.
    In this adress http://www.geocities.com/gutiska/lex/neologism.pdf is a list of neologisms. The language of the goths have some similarities with that of the sarmatians, too. This happened because goths had some cultural relationship with the sarmatians, and this can explain why they employ some women in the military.
    The amazons were part of the sarmatians military tradition. These warrior women were virgins, as you can see in the game Barbarian Invasion. They dont cultivated sensual characteristics. This image of a sensual women with weapons in a myth, a romantic misconception, applied generally to celtic women (because sarmatians were in the roman military in Britain, and their ranks included some women).
    Maybe the goths where intermediaries between the alemanni in the west and the sarmatians and alans in the east. Sarmatian language too, resembles slavic languages, as you can see here http://public.kubsu.ru/~usr02898/sl2.htm. Maybe the cultural exchange with the goths bring to sarmatians some slavic terms, as the goths where kings to slavs. Or this happened because both sarmatian and slavic languages were more close to proto-indo-european.
    Hmm, I can see some gothicism emerging here. Funny.

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    Re: Getica: The Origins and Deeds of the Goths

    I am sorry, I have looked at Wulfila's language. Nothing to do. Romanian (Walachian, Getic) do not match with the pure german there.
    There is a critic of the issue available. http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/pas/index.htm

    May I observe that the problem is very politized and Hungarian historians make all possible efforts to deny existance of Gets after 106AD.

    My point is that this Get(Gothic, Walachian, Romanian, whatever)- language survived the Roman invasion which affected only 14% of the Dacian territory, BUT, the last king (Decebalus/Däbalä or Tauti/Taetwa) was traited. One of the tribes , the Sarmatian Yaziges (somewhat north of Cluj) are mentioned by Dio Cassius. It was normal for Trajan to encourage any defection among the Dacians. I believe Sarmatians are some villages within Dacia (Wallachia). I woud be cautious in considering them as a diffrent nation - see below.

    The pelasgic hypothesis: Toponimics and continuity
    Report #1: Pelasgic
    I have made an attempt in the internet to find out if the name “pelasgic” or "velascu" (for valachian) still exists
    Romania: Pelescu-5, Velescu-946,
    Spain:Velasgo – 197 Velasco-9000070, Pelasco – 500,
    Obs: Pelasgo- 12300, and Pelasgic -29200 are altered by the academic references in the internet about the old greek history. Velasco is also a town founded by european colonists in America.
    Morover suffix “ic” is appears often in Turkish and Bulgarian words.
    Therefore, that antic people is stil here among us, with language and traditions. I also suspect that words common for Tukish and Hungarian might also have a thracian origin.

    Pelasgic area

    Report #2: Sarmisegetuza - the last citadel conquered by Trajan
    Sarmas means salted water. It is very frequent as Transylvania is the bottom of the Sarmatic Sea.
    We have today: Sălişte,Sărata, Sărătura, Sărăţel, Sărăţeni, Sările, Sărmaş (5), Sărmăşel, Sărmăşag. The diminutives are necessary in order to distinguish the various sources. We have not found (yet) Sărgeţel, Sărmăgel or Sărmăgâţa (we look at Trajan's Sargetia). It seems that Sarmagâţa was renamed to Sânmarghita. Sărmătau is impossible, since 'tau' denotes a source of flowing water. Therefore, Sarmis should be a small river, passing near a salt deposit; Sargetia (maybe Sărgâtza, Sargâţa - in today Romanian), a small river near the citadell (where the treasure was hidden) should be searched, but not a creek of 2 salted rivers -it woud be depleted today.
    Also, perhaps they meant the creek of Somes but the combination Somesseged didn't sound enough triumphalistic for Trajan.
    Let us continue with the “sighet” word. It denotes a confluence (creek):
    Szeged in Hungary : creek (confluence) of Mures and Tisa
    Sighisoara (small confluence): creek of Tarnava Mica and Shes
    Sighetu Marmatiei: creek of Tisa and Iza
    Sighetu Silvaniei (near Zalau): creek of Crasna and Zalau
    Sighii (plural, called SIBIU on maps- an incompetent alteration of the original romanian name), many affluents of the Cibin river
    Thus, we get from old Roman sources the word SIGHET in dacian, suggesting that today romanian is actually the same old dacian.
    There are four Somes rivers in Transylvania: the Grand, Small, Warm and Cold.
    Therefore, we have 3 hypothesis for the confluence of then two Sarmis/Somes :
    • Near DEJ (confluence of Grand Somes/Sarmis with Small Somes/Sarmis). We know that Trajan destroyed the Dacian citadel and build a Roman Castrum. No convincing traces were found however near Dej.

    Somesul Rece/Somesul Cald Sighet at Dej
    • Confluence of Warm Somes with Cold Somes at Gilau. One also has a smaller river passing by, called today Sarata which may be the antic Sargetia where Decebal hided his treasure. There is an old stone fortress nearby, (between Vlaha (see King Hwala) and Tauţi (see King Taetwa) ) called "Cetatea Fetei" - uninvestigated archeologically, perhaps assigned to another Romanian hero, Voievod Gelou, beatten by hungarians in 895. However, there is a Roman castrum founded in 106 AD by Trajan there. See the above post about the royal tumuli there.
    1. The huge treasury found by Trajan could consist in looting the royal tombs in the Vlaha Valley, since it is known that Goths were buried with their whole fortune.
    2. Moreover, the nearby village Vlaha suggests a matrix of old Transylvanian voyevodate. This corresponds then to the 'Sarmizegetusa' place described by Dio Cassius for the last Dacian resort.

    Satellite view of the Vlaha site


    The remains of "Cetatea Fetei" - the citadel of the last fight

    At Dabâca, at 30 km away of both Cluj-Napoca and Gilau another fortress, also assigned to Gelou may be found,.
    We mention that in Transylvania (family) names are formed starting with the village of origin while surnames are given. Thus, Ioan Giloan is John from Gilau and Ioan Calborean is John from Calbor. Thus Gelou may be the family name of the IX-th century hero. BUT, for Dabâca, the name of the natives is formed as Däbalä. Thus we get the origin of the name of the last Dacian King and his village, which ressembles to Decebalus. (I encountered such a contraction of sounds personally: Gordes from Gheorghies, because the special group Ghe - or Dece in our case- is negligently pronounced. This also explains the origin of the dacians people name.)
    When Decebalus lost the fortress, he left, but was captured by Romans at 60 km away at Porolissum, i.e Moigrad today. This would’nt be possible with the Roman army at Hunedoara at 300 km away. Therefore we believe having indicated the proper location of Decebal’s last fight.
    Dabâca always had an important administrative role, including in the middle ages, when it was center of a comitate (county). While the antic water pipe is still functioning today, there is no Somes-Sighet there and no salted water neither. It might be the village of origin of Decebalus. i.e. both Decebalus and Gelou mastered both Gilau and Däbâca citadels, separated by 30 km.


    Same walls remained from the Dabaca Castle

    Both sites, have a small river called Luna (Moon), the Downstram Luna and Upstream Luna, which are carving the citadell in a hill under the shape of a half-moon. Further similarities are expected.
    Thus my hypothesis is that ‘the last fight’ happened near Cluj-Napoca, at Vlaha which is a very populated area. Chances to find huge treasuries or artefacts are scarce because of looting (see the previous posts). However, the History Museum there may supply lot of encouraging evidence. I have posted some photos in a site I mentioned ion a previous post. The map was already posted.
    The necropolae there should be very rewarding indeed.

    Report #3: Zalmoxis
    The Gets were venerating the 'Zalmoxis' God and held relics of ancestors; even today relics of the saints are visited for their 'healing' properties; pilgrimages up to 6 days is customary. It is believed that Zalmoxis means "Zäul äl mosh", that is the God of the Ancestors where the fonem mosh is related to heritage (maybe 'vagina' in an indo-european idiom):
    mosh - old man
    moasha - old woman, also helping birth delivery
    stramosh - ancestor
    moshie - land property
    moshtenire - heritage
    Thus, the nordic variant with Walhalla and Woden as Priam (i.e. a patriarch) matches this custom also.

    It is quite clear that the genealogic system (Gotha Almanach) spread in Europe starting from this Gothic (Getic) concept, which Romans observed and depicted them pejoratively on the Trajan's Column with relic boxes in hand (see pictures in previous posts).

    It is essential to distinguish the real cultural heritage of the Goths, which referrs to this ancestry obsession, which is actually very reactionary because is denying any promotion based on merit !


    I cite after Jerrold E. Hogle, "The Cambridge Companion to Gothic Fiction", Cambridge University Press 2002:

    "Gothic relics could be effective for establishing an useful myth of Gothic ancestry that often proved to be as effective for class climbing as it was ultimately counterfeit. Such a use of the emtied past in ghosts of counterfeits has consequently allowed the neo-gothic to be filled with antiquated repositories into which modern quandaries can be projected and abjected simultaneously."
    Last edited by ciurchea; Wednesday, May 10th, 2006 at 10:02 PM.

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    Re: Getica: The Origins and Deeds of the Goths

    I come back with 3 complements to the previous post:

    1. a).Velasco or Velescu should be regarded as Vela-escu i.e. "I am Walachian" (Vela instead of Pella; escu is the antic present tense of to be: eu escu= I am; tu esci = you are ... ); please observe in the previous post that the 'pelasgians' from Pella claim to be Walachians; so you got the meaning of Walachians: the nation and army of Alexander the Great, which survived through history not only in Romania, but in Spain and Mexico also. Thus, it is a nice and honorable descendance, with more fabulous implications than the simple some 'migrating east-germans'.
    b). A Scythian king, Palacus, son of Scilurus lived around 120 BC; he is a good candidate for Hwala, Vlaha in the genealogy above for timing reasons; however, the name should have a trivial meaning: perhaps his mother was from Pella or from Vlaha ....

    2. I cite from: "The Geography of Strabo published in the Loeb Classical Library,1924 ,The text of which is in the public domain. http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/7C*.html"
    17 Then comes the Borysthenes River, which is navigable for a distance of six hundred stadia; and, near it, another river, the Hypanis, and off the mouth of the Borysthenes, an island with a harbour. On sailing up the Borysthenes two hundred stadia one comes to a city of the same name as the river, but the same city is also called Olbia; it is a great trading centre and was founded by Milesians. Now the whole country that lies above the said seaboard between the Borysthenes and the Ister consists, first, of the Desert of the Getae; then the country of the Tyregetans; and after it the country of the Iazygian Sarmatians and that of the
    people called the Basileians == Our Dacian kingdom, with a Basileus(Voyewoda)
    and that of the Urgi, who in general are nomads, ....

    3. I cite (found only in French) from Dion Cassius - Histoire romaine, livre 68 (http://www.mediterranees.net/Empereurs/Dion/Trajan.html) - Trajan:

    a) 8.... Comme il s'efforçait d'arriver sur les hauteurs, enlevant les collines l'une après l'autre et au prix de mille dangers, il arriva près de la résidence des rois daces, en même temps que Lusius, qui avait attaqué d'un autre côté, fit un grand carnage et un grand nombre de prisonniers. Décébale, envoyant alors en ambassade à l'empereur les principaux des Daces portant bonnet, et le faisant implorer par eux, se montra disposé à traiter à n'importe quelle condition.
    Translation
    8.... Working to reach the hights, taking hill after hill with the price of thousand dangers, he arrived close to the residence of the Dacian kings, at the same time with Lusius, which attacked from another side, made a great massacre and many prisonners. Decebalus sending then an embassy formed of the tarabostes(wearing the frygian cap) which implored peace, showed to agree to any conditions for peace.

    The final action takes place in the hills not in the mountains nor in the plain.In fact it was an adoration of the new Basileus-Trajan-as seen on the column.


    b)9.... Aussi Décébale,surtout lorsque, dans le même temps, Maximus eut pris sa soeur et une place forte, ....
    Translation
    9.... Also Decebalus, mainly when, at the same time Maximus captured his sister and a castle,... Useful in confirmation of the satellite view above and in interpretation of the Column scene I have presented above.

    c)14. ...Les trésors de Décébale furent trouvés, bien que cachés sous le fleuve Sargétia, qui baigne la résidence royale. Décébale, en effet, avait, avec l'aide de captifs, détourné le fleuve ; il en avait creusé le fond, et, après y avoir enfoui quantité d'argent et d'or et tout ce qu'il avait de précieux pouvant jusqu'à un certain point souffrir l'humidité, mis des pierres et entassé de la terre par dessus, il avait ensuite ramené le fleuve dans son lit ; il avait aussi fait mettre en dépôt, par ces mêmes captifs, dans des cavernes des vêtements et autres objets de la sorte. Puis, cela fait, il avait égorgé les captifs, afin de les empêcher de rien révéler. Mais Bicilis, un de ses intimes amis, qui avait connaissance de ce qui s'était passé, fut pris et révéla le secret.
    Translation:
    14. ...Decebalus' hoard was found, well hidden under the Sargetia river, which is bathing the royal residence. Indeed, Decebalus had, by using slaves, by passed the river; he had digged the river bed and after stuffing much silver and gold and other precious things which resist humidity, put stones and beatted the the soil above, he brought the river back in its bed; he put in the deposit, by the same slaves, in caverns, clothes and other similar objects. Thereafter, he strangled the slaves, thus avoiding information dissemination. But Bicilis, one of his close friends, knowing what happened revealed the secret.
    So, by finding clothes and 'other objects' in the treasure you got the confirmation that finding the treasure consisted in plundering the tumuli - "Mihacs garden" - tombs of the Dacian kings (the tumuli in question are a royal tradition - gothic, getic, Walachian, Pelasgic/Macedonian, as you please to denote these Basilei and Woyevoda); the Woda's heroes had the priviledge to be buried along with him.

    We have here an additional problem: in the near future (2-3 years) an international highway will traverse this fabulous archeological site.That is how in 2004, 200 (two hundred) warrior tombs were dismantled in Vlaha above ...
    Last edited by ciurchea; Friday, May 19th, 2006 at 03:16 PM.

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