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Thread: Genetic Evidence Suggests European Migrants May Have Influenced the Origins of India's Caste System

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    Genetic Evidence Suggests European Migrants May Have Influenced the Origins of India's Caste System

    Now there's some interesting stuff!!

    A new study has revealed that Indians belonging to higher castes are genetically closer to Europeans than are individuals from lower castes, whose genetic profiles are closer to those of Asians.

    The study compared genetic markers—located on the Y chromosome and the mitochondrial DNA—between 265 Indian men of various castes and 750 African, Asian, European and other Indian men. To broaden the study, 40 markers from chromosomes 1 to 22 were analyzed from more than 600 individuals from different castes and continents. The comparison of the markers among these groups confirmed that genetic similarities to Europeans increased as caste rank increased.
    Read it here

    Here's an additional link of interest, which contains additional links, etc.

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    No surprises here...
    "For the authentic revolutionary conservative, what really counts is to be faithful not to past forms and institutions, but rather to principles of which such forms and institutions have been particular expressions, adequate for a specific period of time and in a specific geographical area." Julius Evola - Men Among the Ruins

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    It is amazing how modern population genetic studies keep revealing and verifying what the supposed "behind the times" physical anthopologists have been telling us for over one hundred years now.

    I mean, they didn't nail everything but they did a pretty damn good job considering the tools they had at their disposal.

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    Lol, I would like to trow this in the face of some flip-flopping germanofobic hindu. But then again I had turned my back on the forum he posts one and to register on other forums he post just for this is more trouble then it's worth.

    But it does however this is further proof for the Indo-European hypothese.

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    Yeah old news. but the bottom of the caste system is negroid, not Asian. The middle caste is a mix of all races (black, asian and white) and the top tier is mostly Aryan (and they look obviously so). But in recent times the government has been encouraging cross breeding of the castes and the old social system is breaking down.

    If you look at the average Indian- that is the future of race of the world. A mix of all races.

    Also a factor: Asian royalty had a heavy Aryan element. Which has long since vanished into the population. Asians (East Asians) themselves are mostly a mixed race of the original Asian race, and small amounts of Aryan and negro.

    The only two mostly pure racial groups on earth are the pure black black Africans and pure European Aryan types.

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    too early to be alexander the great, which leaves the aryans of the post-glacially pluvious eur-asian great plains/lakes

    The authors believe their results support the notion that Europeans who migrated into India between 3,000 and 8,000 years ago may have merged with or imposed their social structure on the native northern Indians and placed themselves into the highest castes.
    ...

    This suggests that the Europeans who entered India were predominantly male.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_migration

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_India_theory

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    Newer studies have proven, that even in non-Indo-Aryan regions the higher castes tend to be closer to Western Eurasians/Europids than the lower ones.

    So one common misunderstanding of the whole issue is to assume, that there was just one wave of Europids marching into India, namely the Aryans, but thats not true. There were waves before and after the Aryan immigration.

    The Dravidas themselves were most likely Neolithic people, related to the Elamite people from the Near East, which founded the pre-Aryan civilisation of Northern India, well known through the remains of Harappa and Mohenjo Daro.

    They began to press from the North of India southward, by settling mainly along the coast and rivers, fertile valleys.

    What the Aryans did was to give them a new impetus, they forced their upper and warrior class further South, were they founded the predecessors of the current Dravida-cultures in India, while the mass of the people in the North became Aryanised, with a new religion and culture. In fact, current Indian culture is primarily the mixture of Aryan and Dravidian elements both in the North and in the South, but in the North the Aryan element succeeded and managed to give the people the language and a stronger Indoeuropean influence, whereas in the South the Dravidian upper class managed to keep their original language and a larger portion of their pre-Aryan culture.

    So from all what we know its totally wrong to assume that non-Aryan in India meant non-Europoid, because there were pre-Aryan (Neolithic) Europids already there and these are the element which still predominantes the subcontinent.

    The Aryan influence just intensified the Europid push into the forests and Weddoid areas and made, especially in the North, the more progressive and robust boned Europid element stronger than it was before - though tall-robust rather Nordindid variants existed in pre-Aryan times with high certainty already as well, certain Irano-Nordoid influences might point to direct Indoeuropean (Aryan and later waves) genflow here and there, as might certain genetic markers.

    But again, even in the South the favourable landscapes are a better indicator for Europoid dominance than the language, since Europids settled primarily in favourable habitats, but gave their language - be it Aryan or Dravidian - also to the neighbouring non-Europid people in the forests. There is nowhere a strict overlap of Indid - Aryan and Weddoid - Dravidian, the strongest correlation is between North and South, favourable vs. unfavourable (for Postneolithic settlements and the Europid race) habitats and higher social vs. lower social status (for India largely equivalent with caste originally).

    The racial type of the Dravidians was Proto-Mediterranoid and ancestral to the modern Indid forms, with the more progressive Weddoid variants being often of Proto-Europoid character, which means there might be a very old fluent border between Europid and Weddoid in India. The Aryans were most likely mostly of Nordeuropid (Nordoid - Cromagnoid) and Suedeuropid (mainly Pontid-Mediterranid and Iranoid) type we can assume. There impact should have been strongest in regions like Afghanistan, Northern parts of Pakistan, Kashmir and Punjab, the areas which are Nordindid with other Europid influences mostly and of course the most Europid areas of India in the wider sense.
    Magna Europa est patria nostra
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    Quote Originally Posted by rainman View Post
    Yeah old news. but the bottom of the caste system is negroid,
    Erm there weren't any Negroids[Congoids or Capoids] outside Africa...

    Quote Originally Posted by rainman View Post
    not Asian.
    I think Asian in the sense as in Australoid or Mongoloid?

    Quote Originally Posted by rainman View Post
    The middle caste is a mix of all races (black, asian and white)
    You said that lower caste was mostly Negroid but where does the Asian part come in with the middle caste if I may ask? Also some pictures would really help!


    Quote Originally Posted by rainman View Post
    and the top tier is mostly Aryan (and they look obviously so). But in recent times the government has been encouraging cross breeding of the castes and the old social system is breaking down.
    That may be true. But I think the inter caste marriage might have been practised even in the olden days...

    Quote Originally Posted by rainman View Post
    The only two mostly pure racial groups on earth are the pure black black Africans and pure European Aryan types.
    This I agree. I'd say inner parts of Europe and sub Saharan Africa are more racially pure? But also nowadays there are immigration of foreigners.
    These foreigners [especially the younger ones] assimilate into the gene pool as well, unfortunately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post
    Newer studies have proven, that even in non-Indo-Aryan regions the higher castes tend to be closer to Western Eurasians/Europids than the lower ones.

    So one common misunderstanding of the whole issue is to assume, that there was just one wave of Europids marching into India, namely the Aryans, but thats not true. There were waves before and after the Aryan immigration.

    The Dravidas themselves were most likely Neolithic people, related to the Elamite people from the Near East, which founded the pre-Aryan civilisation of Northern India, well known through the remains of Harappa and Mohenjo Daro.

    They began to press from the North of India southward, by settling mainly along the coast and rivers, fertile valleys.
    Indus Valley civilizations were heavily concentrated solely within pakistan with just some areas bordering parts of extreme western most northern india and extreme northern most india such as gujarat, sindh, punjab and kashmir.

    Infact one can say indus valley peoples were exclusively found in the heart of pakistan.

    It seems to me pre-aryan[3500 years ago] peoples who founded the indus valley civilizations might have entered the indian subcontinent from the near east and me thinks they were western eurasians or in other words "caucasoids" or better yet progressively(?) europoid looking individuals i.e very fine boned possible robust "aryan"-sorta like beings but somehow they just were'nt "aryan" in the white skinned european europoid sense but akin to us and europoid in every sense of the word other than being native to europe.

    I can tell you australoids never built something as advanced as the IVC.

    Even today many of the isolated australoid tribes of india still live in the stone age and are mostly naked.

    These australoids probably never made contact with the west eurasian europoids or dravidians(?). It seems to me that the indus valley peoples/dravidians/west eurasians poured into pakistan while the veddoid/australoid peoples were largely contained within the thick forests of India before the arrival of aryans[whoever they were].

    Dravidians perhaps instinctively had an understanding of the primitive weddids and made an attempt to exclude and isolate themselves from those weddids

    Or maybe the dravidians drove the australoid types away from pakistan purposely into india?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post
    What the Aryans did was to give them a new impetus, they forced their upper and warrior class further South, were they founded the predecessors of the current Dravida-cultures in India,
    These I agree 100%, the cultures of south india owes tremendously to the upper castes of south india. The music, literature, performing arts and architecture were solely created by the brahmin castes. Infact the brahmins even sculptured the statues and built the temples with their own hands!

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post
    while the mass of the people in the North became Aryanised, with a new religion and culture. In fact, current Indian culture is primarily the mixture of Aryan and Dravidian elements both in the North and in the South, but in the North the Aryan element succeeded and managed to give the people the language and a stronger Indoeuropean influence, whereas in the South the Dravidian upper class managed to keep their original language and a larger portion of their pre-Aryan culture.
    totally seems like it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post
    So from all what we know its totally wrong to assume that non-Aryan in India meant non-Europoid, because there were pre-Aryan (Neolithic) Europids already there and these are the element which still predominantes the subcontinent.
    my thoughts exactly.

    but the "europoid"-ness of the peoples of india have been for many years contested, there seems to be some elements present in indians that has distanced their relationship with europeans.

    here is a quote

    "Indians have traditionally been characterized as being part of the periphery of the Caucasoid race. The subequatorial racial element which distinguishes Indians from Caucasoids-proper has been named Veddoid, Australoid or Palaeo-Indid by various researchers. These new genetic studies have shown Indians to be of mainly dual origins, with West Eurasian racial elements being added to a native South Asian base which persists more strongly in non-caste and southern populations of the subcontinent, and manifests itself primarily in Indian matrilineages."

    BMC Genet. 2004 Aug 31;5(1):26.

    I think...

    dravidians/natives of indus valley were neolithic agriculturalists of the near east who may have been the actual agricultural revolutionists...

    Many people believe that the natives of indus valley were of the same racial "source" as those of ancient sumeria and elam due to overwhelming archaeological evidence showing many cultural parallels.

    At about 10 000 years ago along the rivers of tigris and euphrates arose the ancient sumerian civilizations and along the rivers of indus and saraswat arose the indus valley civilizations.

    Geographically speaking It makes perfect sense that these peoples must have originated from somewhere inbetween pakistan and west asia... in other words "non-aryan europoids/dravidian home land" was near east...

    also the mtdna shows that in india a sizeable portion has west eurasian female lineages of that found in pakistan which in turn is found in iran.

    another interesting thing is that in iraq ~ J2 = 30% and south indian brahmins have this dna at 20% they are the only ones in south india that have this and it their strongest male lineage.

    I do not know how much of west eurasian mtdna the brahmans of southern india has. But I'm willing to bet that they have it at a higher rate than other south indians.

    Your average tamil in southen india is reputed to look more "woggy" than say your average punjabi from punjab.

    And behold! the west eurasian mtdna is highest in western regions of india aka original indus valley regions while M mtdna is highest in south india along with east india. Which explains more australoid and mongoloid looking individuals in those respective regions.

    Indus Valley regions that actually was in India were only Gujarat, Haryanna and Rajastan.

    Gujarat has the highest U7 mtdna in all of india found at 17%.

    In India when we compare the ydna/male lineages and mtdna/maternal lineages the side of the coin that seems to hold the key to explaining the racial types is the mtdna

    West Eurasian maternal lineages make 50% of all the mtdna found in Pakistan.

    this statement totally revelates everything.

    the caucasoid elements of india without any reason of doubt came from pakistan!

    if one where to access the ancient dravidian peoples the best people would be pakistanis and not indians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post
    The Aryan influence just intensified the Europid push into the forests and Weddoid areas and made, especially in the North, the more progressive and robust boned Europid element stronger than it was before - though tall-robust rather Nordindid variants existed in pre-Aryan times with high certainty already as well,
    Do you mean that aryan invasion drove pre-aryan europoids into northern india more so? and those europoids were phenotypically "nord indid"? [what is a nord indid agrippa?]

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post
    certain Irano-Nordoid influences might point to direct Indoeuropean (Aryan and later waves) genflow here and there, as might certain genetic markers.
    maybe irano-nordoid could also be part of the racial constituition of the dravidians?

    also I would love to see what an example of irano-nordoid is, please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post
    But again, even in the South the favourable landscapes are a better indicator for Europoid dominance than the language, since Europids settled primarily in favourable habitats, but gave their language - be it Aryan or Dravidian - also to the neighbouring non-Europid people in the forests.
    in other words regions most fertile would have more racially "europoid" individuals?

    to me that makes sense too, for the dravidians were farmers-traders by nature whereas the veddoids hunter-gatherers...

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post
    There is nowhere a strict overlap of Indid - Aryan and Weddoid - Dravidian,
    Sorry I don't quite get what you're saying here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post
    the strongest correlation is between North and South, favourable vs. unfavourable (for Postneolithic settlements and the Europid race) habitats and higher social vs. lower social status (for India largely equivalent with caste originally).

    The racial type of the Dravidians was Proto-Mediterranoid and ancestral to the modern Indid forms,
    proto-[whatever sub type of europoid] makes me think of australoids...

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post
    with the more progressive Weddoid variants being often of Proto-Europoid character, which means there might be a very old fluent border between Europid and Weddoid in India.
    so you're telling me that the dravidians were proto-europoids or rather australoids?

    no way... I think the best examples of of the ancient dravidians are fully europoid looking peoples.

    a transition from an australoid to your modern day semi-europoid average indian is impossible.

    seems to me that your average indian today [low caste?] is a hybrid between a once fully europoid dravidian and some australoid like those of indian tribes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post
    The Aryans were most likely mostly of Nordeuropid (Nordoid - Cromagnoid) and Suedeuropid (mainly Pontid-Mediterranid and Iranoid) type we can assume. There impact should have been strongest in regions like Afghanistan, Northern parts of Pakistan, Kashmir and Punjab, the areas which are Nordindid with other Europid influences mostly and of course the most Europid areas of India in the wider sense.
    It seems unlikely that aryans added on to any "europoid"-ness that the ancient IVC possessed.

    I think at best there were just one sub-race type that added onto an equally progressively europoid dravidian.

    It is quite hard for me to judge what the aryans might have looked like.

    To me... I only judge europoid indians VS australoid and australoid hybrid-like indians.

    Its very simple that way, just dumping all the europoid ones into the "dravidian" category. And thrn just labelling them as a sub-race type of dravidian e.g

    race: dravidian

    sub-race: irano-afghan



    or

    race: dravidian

    sub race: atlanto - mediterranean + irano - afghan



    individuals like these... often of bollywood calibre... makes me think thats what those near eastern europoids who migrated into pakistan must have looked like...

    M mtdna is also found rather high amongst the brahmans of south india, although they have it the least of all of the south indian ethnic groups.

    And without a doubt they are the most progressively europoid looking peoples in southern india.

    I think they should also be having higher west eurasian mtdna as a people than the rest of the south indian populace...

    And might I add they can sometimes be sharply distinct from the rest of the south indian populace? producing rather splendid and magnificently fine look individuals

    paler complexion[less greasy/charred skin tones], more robust built and sharper features...

    two iyer/tamil brahman boys with their grandpa [who looks rather statuesque]



    one extremely europoid looking iyengar of vadagalai gotra from tamil province deep south of india, in my opinion.



    he is almost on par with mr jawarhalal nehru in terms of europoidness, a kashmiri pandit from northern most india of the kashmir range.

    kashmiri pandits have the highest R1a1 lineages in india but me thinks that has got nothing to do with his physique, because the tamil brahmans have woggy mtdna yet manage to look europoid even with it in opposition to the kashmiri pandits who have alot less woggy mtdna.




    from my personal experience I can tell you that 10% of tamil brahmins are as exactly robust and masculine uber europoid looking as him.

    and all this angelic human beauty with woggy mtdna clogging the racial bloodlines...

    imagine what can be done...

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    Quite often when visting Scottish castles I have found a plaque saying " such and such a family moved to India in 1630.." or something similar. One famous Scotsman boasted of having 800 Indian wives. I read one estimate that the number of Indians with British ancestry is now 50 million forming a resevoir for the upper caste and reinvigorating Indian civilisation.
    What has always been a mystery to me is why didn't the British establish a genuine white colony in the Kashmir? The region is snowy, pine forested and very alpine. I think the reason was because the people there were already quite "White".








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