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Thread: A Non-Germanic Skadi?

  1. #11
    Senior Member rainman's Avatar
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    possibly because title and inheritance was passed on along the male bloodline. Similar to the act that male warriors sometimes took mates from outsiders or perhaps even lesser folk, but the female was more protected from such. Speculation though. A king could for example in some rare cases marry a commoner and have a royal bloodline. A queen certainly could not (or prince/princess rather). Maybe the marriage to a God is somehow raising the racial level of the jotun?

    Then again different stories are symbols of different things. So some inconsistencies could be expected. I never put much weight on the ancient lore because its mostly fragmented and corrupted as we have it, and thus work towards a more consistent personal/modern interpretation of the myths. I have found that learning about hindu myths which have a common Aryan root helps better understand the European myths at times. Considering most of our lore comes from the Christian age which had worked to corrupt and suppress it and also from a mostly non-literate society which will have obvious inconsistencies.

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    I think there could be several things at work here..

    First to go with Thor..

    The figure of Thor, however, shows signs of being the eldest of the pantheon, even going back, possibly to the Paleolithic age, when his celebrated hammer would have been properly a characteristic weapon. He is never equipped with a sword or lance, or mounted on a steed, like Wodan, but walks against his foes. And as a clever giant-killer, he has counterparts in the monster-killers of practically every primitive hunting mythology on record.26

    Occidental Mythology, page 477
    Then to Loki..

    26..

    In the carnival customs of Europe this figure survives in the numerous clowns, buffoons, devils, Pulcinellas, and imps who play the roles, precisely, of the clowns in the rites of the Indian Pueblos and give the character of topsy-turvy day to the feast. They represent, from the point of view of the masters of decorum, the chaos principle, the principle of disorder, the force careless of taboos and shattering bounds. But from the point of view of the deeper realms of being from which the energies of life ultimately spring, this principle is not to be despised. Indeed, in a most amazing manner, in the period of the building of the cathedras of the high Middle Ages--as Dr. Jung has reminded us in his article “ On the Psychology of the Trickster Figure”--there were some strange ecclesiastical customs reflecting the grimace of this master of chaos: most notably the festum asinorum, which Nietzsche parodied in his chapter on the “Ass Festival” in Thus Spake Zarathustra. The occasion honored in the whimsical feast was the flight of the Holy Family into Egypt, and in the cathedral of Beauvais the girl playing the role of Mary, together with the ass, went right up to the alter, where she stationed herself at the Gospel side, and at the conclusion of each section of the high mass that followed, the whole congregation brayed. An eleventh century codex states that “at the end of the mass, instead of the words Ite missa est ( “Go, the mass is ended”), the priest shall bray three times, and instead of the words Deo gratias (“God be thanked”), the congregation shall bray three times.”

    Dr. Jung’s view is that “the trickster is a collective shadow figure, an epitome of all the inferior traits of a character in individuals.” Such a view, however, is presented from the ground of our later “bounded” style of thought. In the Paleolithic sphere from which this figure derives, he was the archetype of the hero, the giver of all great boons--the fire-bringer and the teacher of mankind.

    Primitive Mythology, page 274
    Now, here I think of this thread I came up with which questioned whether or not Loki is Lodur and Heimdall as well..?? With words like “trickster”/“fire-bringer”, “blooming hue”, and “teacher of mankind” ( maybe even the war between the Aesir and Vanir ) I find there to be plenty to wonder on..??

    On another note. Lapps do the shamanism thing. It has been said that Loki and Odin are blood-brothers. Odin is accused of siedhr..?? There is just something there. Odin’s mother is, after all, Bestla.

    It is hardly proper to call such a figure a god, or even to think of him as supernatural. He is a super-shaman. And we find his counterparts in myth and legend throughout the world, wherever shamanism has left its mark: in Oceania and Africa, as well as in Siberia and Europe. In Polynesia, Maui is the trickster. We have already witnessed a couple of his feats. Br’er Rabbit has taught us something of his African form, where he is also Anansi, the spider. Among the Greeks he was Hermes ( Mercury ), the shape-shifter and master of the way to the land of the dead, as well as Prometheus, the fire-bringer. In Germanic myth he appeared as the mischief-maker Loki, whose very character was fire and who, at the time of Ragnarok, the Twilight of the Gods, will be the leader of the host of Hel.

    Primitive Mythology, Pages 275-276
    This one goes from Nietzshce to Loki, and then right back to Nietzsche..

    The young Nietzsche, in The Birth of Tragedy, contrasted the
    biblical myth of the Fall in the Garden unfavorably with what he
    took to be the typically Greek heroic and tragic myth of Prometheus.
    The whole mythology of the Fall with its concept of disobedience
    to a higher power, its serpent's lying misrepresentation,
    its seduction, greed, and concupiscence in short, its constellation
    of what he termed "feminine affects" represented for Nietzsche an
    interpretation of human values that could be termed only contemptuous
    and contemptible; whereas in the bold impiety of the
    Greek Titan representing man's courageous achievement of his
    own cultural and spiritual stature in defiance of the jealous gods
    he saw an essentially masculine worth.

    Since Nietzsche's day we have learned that the fire-theft is not a
    specifically Indo-European mythological motif; nor the idea of the
    Fall specifically biblical. However, it is still true that these two
    represent the poles of the Western World's mythological inheritance.
    The Greek Titan, a sublimation of the image of the selfreliant,
    shamanistic trickster, who frequently comes off badly at
    the end of an adventure, is neither condemned in his intransigent
    defiance of Zeus nor mocked as a fool by the Greek playwright,
    but offered, rather, as a tragic pattern of man's relationship to the
    governing powers of the natural universe. Whereas the Bible, in its
    spirit of priestly piety, recognizing equally the tension between
    God and man, stands on the side of God and breaks not only man's
    will but the serpent's too.

    Prometheus knows what he has done for mankind, and shouts it
    in God's teeth. Men, before he taught them, knew no arts but in
    the dark earth burrowed and housed, like ants hi caves. They had
    no calendar until he taught them to know the rising and setting of
    the stars. He gave them numbers, the arts of writing, farming and
    the harnessing of the horse; metallurgy, medicine, divination; yes,
    and the art, even, of making sacrifice to Zeus. In the bold play of
    Aeschylus, Prometheus Bound, we hear the ring of that great Titan's
    defiant challenge:

    In one round sentence, every god I hate
    That injures me who never injured him.

    Deem not that I, to win a smile from Jove,
    Will spread a maiden smoothness o'er my soul,
    And importune the foe whom most I hate
    With womanish upliftings of the hands.62

    In contrast, however, we admire no less the proud though
    humble piety of Job, who, when shown the wonder of the power
    that had dealt with him unjustly, yet made the world, poured
    ashes on his head. "I had heard of thee by the hearing of the ear,
    but now my eyes see thee," Job confessed before his God, "therefore
    I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes." 63

    These two traditions are mixed in the inheritance not only of the
    West but of all civilizations and represent the poles of man's
    spiritual tension: that of the priestly representation of the power
    that shaped the universe as a force beyond human criticism or
    challenge, the power that made the sun and moon, the seas,
    Leviathan, Behemoth, and the mountains, before whom man's
    proper attitude is awe; and, on the other hand, that of the intransigency
    of the self-sufficient magician, the titan power of the
    shaman, the builder of Babel, careless of God's wrath, who knows
    that he is older, greater, and stronger than the gods. For indeed, it
    is man that has created the gods, whereas the power that created
    the universe is none other than the will that operates in man himself
    and in man alone has achieved the consciousness of its kingdom,
    power, and glory.

    Zeus, it may be recalled, had taken offense when Prometheus
    had tricked him at the time of the offering of a sacrifice. The Titan,
    having slain a sacrificial bull, filled the stomach of the beast with
    meat for himself and his people, wrapping the bones deceptively
    and attractively in juicy fat; and when he presented these two
    packaged portions to the king of the gods, bidding him choose the
    one he desired, Zeus, deceived, took the portion wrapped in fat.
    Opening which, and finding nothing but bones, Zeus became a
    god of wrath, and to such an absurd degree that he withheld from
    mankind the precious gift of fire. Whereupon Prometheus, man's
    savior, stole it according to one version, from the workshop of
    the lame god of fire and metalwork, Hephaistos; but, according to
    another, from the hearth of Zeus himself, on the summit of
    Olympus. Prometheus carried with him a hollow stalk of narthex,
    which he ignited at the blaze, and then, waving the stalk to keep
    it burning, came running back. Still another version relates that
    Prometheus plucked his fire from the sun.64 But in any case, Zeus
    took upon him an extreme revenge. For he caused Hephaistos to
    nail the boon-bringer to the highest summit of the Caucasus, drove
    a pillar through his middle in the way of a stake, and sent an eagle
    to eat his liver. What is torn away of the liver in the day grows
    back at night, so that the torture goes on and on. And yet, the
    punishment, presently, will end; for, as Prometheus knows, there
    is a prophecy that one day his chains will fall away of themselves
    and the world-eon of Zeus dissolve.

    The prophecy is the same as that of the Eddic Twilight of the
    Gods, when Loki will lead forth the rugged hosts of Hel:

    Then shall happen what seems great tidings: the Wolf
    shall swallow the sun; and this shall seem to men a great
    harm. Then the other wolf shall seize the moon, and he also
    shall work great ruin; the stars shall vanish from the heavens.
    Then shall come to pass these tidings also: all the earth shall
    tremble so, and the crags, that trees shall be torn up from
    the earth, and the crags fall to ruin; and all fetters and bonds
    shall be broken and rent. . . . The Fenris-Wolf shall advance
    with gaping mouth, and his lower jaw shall be against
    the earth, but the upper against heaven, he would gape yet
    more if there were room for it; fires blaze forth from his eyes
    and nostrils. The Midgard Serpent shall blow venom so that
    he shall sprinkle all the air and water; and he is very terrible,
    and shall be on one side of the Wolf. . . . Then shall the
    Ash of Yggdrasil tremble, and nothing then shall be without
    fear in heaven or on earth.65

    The binding of the shamans by the Hactcin, by the gods and
    their priests, which commenced with the victory of the Neolithic
    over the paleolithic way of life, may perhaps be already terminating
    today in this period of the irreversible transition of society
    from an agricultural to industrial base, when not the piety of the
    planter, bowing humbly before the will of the calendar and the
    gods of rain and sun, but the magic of the laboratory, flying rocket
    ships where the gods once sat, holds the promise of the boons of
    the future.

    "Could it be possible! This old saint in the forest has not heard
    that God is dead!" 66

    Nietzsche's word was the first pronouncement of the Promethean
    Titan that is now coming unbound within us for the next world
    age. And the priests of the chains of Zeus may well tremble; for
    the bonds are disintegrating of themselves.

    Primitive Mythology, Pages 278-281
    I find the story of Zeus and the Titan filling the belly up for himself to be like Thor upset about his goat's marrow missing..

    Seems like there could be something between chaos and order that goes in circles..?? Or, Ragnarok and what the Seeress called Gimle..?? Or, what Nietzsche called “good and evil” and “eternal return”..??

    But, back to the point, it could seem that to say our giantesses are of history, like Odin is from Troy or something, is to hurt their validity, as they are not literal and speak to our innermost being. But, maybe, on another level, our level of actually being here, we naturally find happenings in our lives that seem to reflect this mythological way of living life.

    Later,
    -Lyfing

  3. #13
    Senior Member Aemma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    To further investigate that question, is there a male giant who took a female god as a bride?
    Legitimate question, and I would answer not from that which we know at present.

    But we must remember that the potential corpus of our Germanic mythology is limited to some great degree. Gods only know how much of it has been lost in reality. As well, we must consider the fact that history (and I include oral history in this as well) has always naturally had a severe bias towards the vanquisher.

    Frith...Aemma

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aemma View Post
    Legitimate question, and I would answer not from that which we know at present.
    It is just another piece in the puzzle, certainly not meant to be the single source for a final conclusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aemma View Post
    But we must remember that the potential corpus of our Germanic mythology is limited to some great degree. Gods only know how much of it has been lost in reality. As well, we must consider the fact that history (and I include oral history in this as well) has always naturally had a severe bias towards the vanquisher.
    I agree, and I wish you would hold your parol for all those who think it is somehow an established fact, that ancient Germanics were oh so freedom loving, non-racist and women and foreigner respecting, as we could really know, justifying any decision with the past is bound to be a failure. You are right in remaining skeptic.
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

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    The harmonic golden age of the Germanic gods comes to an end when the three trolls (*thriggja thursa*) emerge from the Jotunheim/Utgard. The trolls attempted to establish exogamic alliances between (antagonistic) gods and giants (cf. Gerdr and Skadi). The gods become aware of their limited powers, and reject the trolls as a threat to the cosmic order, i.e. the established hierarchy with the the Aesir-Vanir Gods (the divine race) at the top and the Jotnar/Jotuns (the race of the giants) at the bottom.

    The lowest ranked race, the giants, represent the cold, dark, destructive forces, while the gods represent cosmic order and dynamic creativity.

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    I'll add that some representations of Skadi look Lappoid/Sami too.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Todesengel View Post
    EDIT: <reply to deleted post /-2016>
    It has been reckoned and pretty much accepted that the word "Scandinavia" etymologically derives from Skadi + nauja, so I'd be a little less loud about this. If we happened to accept such as fact, then it would show that ancient Germanics held Skadi in the highest of veneration imaginable.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    It has been reckoned and pretty much accepted that the word "Scandinavia" etymologically derives from Skadi + nauja, so I'd be a little less loud about this. If we happened to accept such as fact, then it would show that ancient Germanics held Skadi in the highest of veneration imaginable.
    So what? That would work for forums like nordisk.nu, but this is a Germanic, not a purely Scandinavian forum. If Skadi turns out to be non-Germanic in origin, and there are plenty of arguments in favor of it which haven't been refuted, then this forum won't look credible with a non-Germanic name, named after a Saami giantess.

  9. #19
    Senior Member rainman's Avatar
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    When I said Jotuns represent outsiders I didn't mean literal historical figures but I meant symbolically. It's all symbolic exept I think there really was a merging of two cultures- one that honored the vanir and another the aesir. I think that is literal but it's hard to prove something from pre-history.

    Anyway we all descend from a giant- wasn't the world created from the slaying of the original giant? It makes sense from the point of view of evolution. Constant self improvement and personal growth is a central theme which in modern terms evolution.

    I'd say ragnarok doesn't exist as a point in time. It is a death and rebirth- the eternal return. Also represents our need to always prepare and be ready for struggle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    It has been reckoned and pretty much accepted that the word Scandinavia etymologically derives from Skadi + nauja
    The etymology is disputed, but Scandinavia derives from Scania (southern part of Sweden). This has nothing to do with the giantess Skadi, even if the (proto-)Germanic root could be the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    If we happened to accept such as fact, then it would show that ancient Germanics held Skadi in the highest of veneration imaginable.
    There is no evidence of an ancient cult of Skadi in Scandinavia (toponyms, for instance).

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