Results 1 to 3 of 3

Thread: Lodur and Heimdall...

  1. #1
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Last Online
    Monday, July 16th, 2012 @ 01:14 AM
    Ethnicity
    CeltoGermanic
    Country
    Vinland Vinland
    State
    Alabama Alabama
    Gender
    Age
    41
    Family
    Married, happily
    Occupation
    Tree Wizard
    Religion
    Wotanist
    Posts
    428
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5
    Thanked in
    5 Posts

    Lodur and Heimdall...

    To the coast then came, kind and mighty,
    from the gathered gods three great Aesir;
    On the land they found, of little strength,
    Ask and Embla, unfated yet.

    Sense they possessed not, soul they had not,
    Being nor bearing, nor blooming hue;
    Soul gave Othin, sense gave Haenir,
    Being, Lothur, and blooming hue.

    Voluspa 17-18, Hollander trans.
    Now of course the creation myth itself is a subject to study in its own right, but for the*purposes of this article we are concerned only with dispelling the misconception that sometimes arises like a noxious boil, that Loki played any role in it.

    Some scholastic writers, such as HA Bellows, have theorised that the rather mysterious Lodur is in fact Loki under a different name. This theory however while possibly academically clever, is false. Lodur, whenever mentioned in the myths is always a positive and benevolent being. His gift to the myths first man and women of our folk is `heat` and a `healthy hue`. Lodur is a fire God in one aspect and one level his very name being linked to the German `Lodern` which means `to blaze` as was noted by Jacob Grimm among others. Loki also has a fire aspect on one level and this led in time to a confusion of the two. Skaldskaparmal cemented this confusion when it changed the creator trio of Gods from Odin, Hoenir and Lodur to Odin, Hoenir and Loki. In some skaldic verse Loki is given the eke name of ``staunch friend of Hoenir`. But of course it is ridiculous to ascribe the obviously beneficent qualities of Lodur to Loki. Though both on one level, fire beings, it is important to remember Lodur is a God of beneficent fire while Loki is a force of destructive, baneful fire. Loki in no away at all is a friend to the Gods, let alone a ``staunch friend``. From his very inception he works to destroy the Gods and men, he is wholly malignant and negative. Lodur's gifts to humanity are of course totally positive, Loki is the force of illusion which is ignorance and from which all harm ultimately flows, it is inconceivable that the original myths (which go back to the earliest of Indo European times) would ascribe such a negative entity with a role in the creation of the manifestation in Midgarth of the Holy energy of the High Gods, no `gift` Loki gives is ever genuinely well intended. Loki the ``living shame to everyone`` is absolutely not a benevolent deity.

    However due to the fact that both Lodur and Loki have a fire aspect and possibly also due to what some may see as a similarity of name, over the great period of time from our myths first inception in pre-historical times, and with the loss of real awareness and understanding of the essence of our myth (as alluded to in my earlier article Cycles of Time) this confusion arose and they became seen (by some) as one and the same being.
    The whole fire aspect of both is worthy of separate consideration, but that is for another article. Suffice to say that Lodur is representative of beneficial fire and heat, while Loki, naturally epitomises destructive, baneful flame on this level of the myths. Lodur and Loki are in fact opponents, not one and the same. We can also remember that Heimdal also has an aspect of a beneficent fire God. Throughout our myths Heimdal is an implacable foe of Loki and at Ragnarok they `slay` each other. Heimdal is also deeply involved with our folk's creation under the guise of Rig, he created the social order. We say ``gather round ye children of Heimdal``. The similarities between Lodur and Heimdal are in fact so great that it is in fact Heimdal who is almost certainly the same divine being as Lodur.

    MAY LOKI BE BOUND part III
    83.
    MUNDILFORI'S IDENTITY WITH LODUR.
    The position which we have found Mundilfori to occupy indicates that, although not belonging to the powers dwelling in Asgard, he is one of the chief gods of the Teutonic mythology. All natural phenomena, which appear to depend on a fixed mechanical law and not on the initiative of any mighty will momentarily influencing the events of the world, seem to have been referred to his care. The mythology of the Teutons, like that of the Rigveda-Aryans, has had gods of both kinds - gods who particularly represent that order in the physical and moral world which became fixed in creation, and which, under normal conditions, remain entirely uniform, and gods who particularly represent the powerful temporary interference for the purpose of restoring this order when it has been disturbed, and for the purpose of giving protection and defence to their worshippers in times of trouble and danger. The latter are in their very nature war-gods always ready for battle, such as Vita and Indra in Rigveda, Odin and Thor-Indridi in the Eddas; and they have their proper abode in a group of fortified celestial citadels like Asgard, whence they have their out-look upon the world they have to protect - the atmosphere and Midgard. The former, on the other hand, have their natural abode in Jormungrund's outer zone and in the lower world, whence the world-tree grew, and where the fountains are found whose liquids penetrate creation, and where that wisdom had its source of which Odin only, by self-sacrifice, secured a part. Down there dwell, accordingly, Urd and Mimir, Nott and Dag, Mundilfori with the dises of the sun and the moon, Delling, the genius of the glow of dawn, and Billing, the genius of the blushing sunset. There dwell the smiths of antiquity who made the chariots of the sun and moon and smithied the treasures of vegetation. There dwell the*nidjar*who represent the moon's waxing and waning; there the seven sons of Mimir who represent the changing seasons (see No. 87). Mundilfori is the lord of the regular revolutions of the starry firmament, and of the regular rising and sinking of the sea in its ebb and flood. He is the father of the dises of the sun and moon, who make their celestial journeys according to established laws; and, finally, he is the origin of the holy fire; he is father of Heimdall, who introduced among men a systematic life in homes fixed and governed by laws. As the father of Heimdall, the Vana-god, Mundilfori is himself a Vana-god, belonging to the oldest branch of this race, and in all probability one of those "wise rulers" (vís regin) who, according to Vafţrúđnismál 39, "created Njord in Vanaheim and sent him as a hostage to the gods (the Asas)".
    Whence came the clans of the Vans and the Elves? It should not have escaped the notice of the mythologists that the Teutonic theogony, as far as it is known, mentions only two progenitors of the mythological races - Ymir and Buri. From Ymir develop the two very different races of giants, the offspring of his arms and that of his feet (see No. 86) - in other words, the noble race to which the norns, Mimir and Bestla belong, and the ignoble, which begins with Ţrúđgelmir.*Buri*gives birth to*Burr*(Bor), and the latter has three sons -*Óđinn,Véi*(Vé), and*Vili*(Vilir). Unless Buri had more sons, the Van- and Elf-clans have no other theogonic source than the same as the Asa-clan, namely, Burr. That the hierologists of the Teutonic mythology did not leave the origin of these clans unexplained we are assured by the very existence of a Teutonic theogony, together with the circumstance that the more thoroughly our mythology is studied the more clearly we see that this mythology has desired to answer every question which could reasonably be asked of it, and in the course of ages it developed into a systematic and epic whole with clear outlines sharply drawn in all details. To this must be added the important observation that Vei and Vili, though brothers of Odin, are never counted among the Asas proper, and had no abode in Asgard. It is manifest that Odin himself with his sons founds the Asa-race, that, in other words, he is a clan-founder in which this race has its chieftain, and that his brothers, for this very reason, could not be included in his clan. There is every reason to assume that they, like him, were clan-founders; and as we find besides the Asa-clan two other races of gods, this of itself makes it probable that Odin's two brothers were their progenitors and clan-chieftains.
    Odin's brothers, like himself, had many names. When Völuspá says that Odin, in the creation of man, was assisted by Hoenir and Lodur, and when the Younger Edda (Gylfaginning 9) says that, on this occasion, he was attended by his brothers, who just before (Gylfaginning 6) are called Ve and Vili, then these are only different names of the same powers. Hoenir and Lodur are Ve and Vili. It is a mistake to believe that Odin's brothers were mythical ghosts without characteristic qualities, and without prominent parts in the mythological events after the creation of the world and of man, in which we know they took an active part (Völuspá 4, 17, 18). The assumption that this was the case depends simply upon the fact that they have not been found mentioned among the Asas, and that our records, when not investigated with proper thoroughness, and when the mythological synonymies have not been carefully examined, seem to have so little to say concerning them.
    Danish genealogies, Saxo's included, which desire to go further back in the genealogy of the Skjoldungs than to Skjold, the eponym of the race, mention before him a King Lotherus. There is no doubt that Lotherus, like his descendants, Skjold, Halfdan, and Hadding, is taken from the mythology. But in our mythic records there is only one name of which Lotherus can be a Latinised form, and this name is, as Müller (Notć ulterior ad Saxonis Hist.) has already pointed out,*Lóđurr.
    It has above been demonstrated (see Nos. 20, 21, 22) that the anthropomorphous Vana-god Heimdall was by Vana-gods sent as a child to the primeval Teutonic country, to give to the descendants of Ask and Embla the holy fire, tools, and implements, the runes, the laws of society, and the rules for religious worship. It has been demonstrated that, as an anthropomorphous god and first patriarch, he is identical with Scef-Rig, the Scyld of the Beowulf poem, that he becomes the father of the other original patriarch Skjold, and the grandfather of Halfdan. It has likewise been demonstrated (No. 82) that Heimdall, the personified sacred fire, is the son of the fire-producer (by friction) Mundilfori, in the same manner as Agni is the son of Mâtaricvan. From all this it follows that when the authors of mythic genealogies related as history wish to get further back in the Skjoldung genealogy than to the Beowulf Skjold, that is to say, further back than to the original patriarch Heimdall, then they must go to that mythic person who is Heimdall's father, that is to say, to Mundilfori, the fire-producer. Mundilfori is the one who appears in the Latinised name Lotherus. In other words, Mundilfori, the fire-producer, is*Lóđurr. For the name*Lóđurr*there is no other rational explanation than that which Jacob Grimm, without knowing his position in the epic of mythology, has given, comparing the name with the verb*lodern, "to blaze".*Lóđurr*is active in its signification, "he who causes or produces the blaze," and thus refers to the origin of fire, particularly of the friction-fire and of the bore-fire.
    Further on (Nos. 90, 91, 92, 121, 123) I shall give an account of the ward of the atmosphere,*Gevarr*(Nökkvi,*Nćfr), and demonstrate that he is identical with Mundilfori, the revolver of the starry firmament. All that Saxo tells about Lotherus is explained by the character of the latter as the chieftain of a Vana-clan, and by his identity with Mundilfori-Gevarr. As a chieftain of the Vans he was their leader when the war broke out between the Asas on the one side, and the Vans and Elves on the other. The banishment of Odin and the Asas by the Vans causes Saxo to say that Lotherus banished from the realm persons who were his equals in noble birth (nobilitate pares), and whom he regarded as competitors in regard to the government. It is also stated that he took the power from an elder brother, but spared his life, although he robbed him of the sceptre. The brother here referred to is not, however, Odin, but*Hćnir*(Véi). The character of the one deposed is gentle and without any greed for rule like that by which Hoenir is known. Saxo says of him that he so patiently bore the injustice done him that he seemed to be pleased therewith as with a kindness received (ceterum injurić tam patiens fuit, ut honoris damno tanquam beneficio gratulari crederetur). The reason why Hoenir, at the outbreak of the war with the Asas, is deposed from his dignity as the ruler of Vanaheim and is succeeded by Lodur, is explained by the fact that he, like Mimir, remained devoted to the cause of Odin. In spite of the confused manner in which the troubles between the Asas and Vans are presented in Heimskringla, it still appears that, before the war between the Asas amid Vans, Hoenir was the chief of the latter on account of an old agreement between the two god-clans; that he then always submitted to the counsels of the wise Mimir, Odin's friend; that Mimer lost his life in the service of Odin, and that the Vans sent his head to Odin; and, finally, that, at the outbreak of the feud with the Asas and after the death of Mimir, they looked upon Hoenir as unqualified to be their judge and leader. Thus Lodur becomes after Hoenir the ruler of Vanaheim and the chieftain of the Vans, while the Vans Njord, Frey, and the Elf Ull, who had already been adopted in Asgard, administer the affairs of the rest of the world. To the mythical circumstance, that Hoenir lost his throne and his power points also Völuspá, the poem restoring to the gentle and patient Vana-god, after the regeneration, the rights of which he had been robbed,*ţá kná Hćnir hlautviđ kjósa*(str. 64). "Then Hoenir becomes able to choose the lot-wood," that is to say, he is permitted to determine and indicate the fortunes of those consulting the oracle; in other words, then he is again able to exercise the rights of a god. In the Eddas, Hoenir appears as Odin's companion on excursions from Asgard. Skáldskaparmál, which does not seem to be aware that Hoenir was Odin's brother, still is conscious that he was intimately connected with him and calls him his*sessi,*sinni, and*máli*(Skáldskaparmál 22). During the war between Asas and Vans, Frigg espoused the cause of the Vans (see No. 36); hence Loki's insulting words to her (Lokasenna 26), and the tradition in Heimskringla (Ynglingasaga 3), that Vilir and Vei took Frigg to themselves once when Odin was far away from Asgard.
    Saxo makes Lotherus fall at the hands of conspirators. The explanation of this statement is to be sought in*Mundilföri-Gevarr's*fate, of which, see Nos. 91, 123.
    Mundilfori's character seems at least in one respect to be the opposite of Hoenir's. Gylfaginning 11 speaks of his*ofdramb, his pride, founded, according to this record, on the beauty of his children. Saxo mentions the*insolentia*of Lotherus, and one of his surnames wasDulsi, the proud. See No. 89, where a strophe is quoted, in which the founder of the Swedish Skilfing race (the Ynglings) is called*Dulsa konr, Dulsi's descendant. As was shown above in the account of the myth about Scef, the Skjoldungs, too, are Skilfings. Both these branches of the race have a common origin; and as the genealogy of the Skjoldungs can be traced back to Heimdall, and beyond him to Mundilfori, it must be this personality who is mentioned for his*ofdramb, that bears the surname*Dulsi.
    With Odin,*Véi-Hćnir*and*Vili-Lóđurr-Mundilföri*have participated in the shaping of the world as well as in the creation of man. Of the part they took in the latter act, and of the importance they thereby acquired in the mythical anthropology, and especially in the conceptions concerning the continued creation of man by generation and birth, see No. 95.

    http://www.northvegr.org/lore/rydberg/083.php
    I wonder if anyone has thoughts, or anything else, on this matter..??

    Later,
    -Lyfing

  2. #2
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Last Online
    Friday, June 18th, 2010 @ 01:54 PM
    Status
    Prolonged Absence
    Ethnicity
    Vandalic
    Ancestry
    Reidgotalandic
    Location
    Limes Germanicus
    Gender
    Posts
    943
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    29
    Thanked in
    28 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyfing View Post
    I wonder if anyone has thoughts, or anything else, on this matter..?
    Hmm... Loki is primarily a liminal, ambivalent figure. He is counted among the Aesir but is not one of them. His father was a giant.

    Loki deceived the gods, but sometimes he also got them out of trouble. He is called the friend of Thor. He is essentially a *trickster* figure. Thus, he can give birth as well as beget offspring. The eight-legged horse of Odin, Sleipnir, was born of Loki in the shape of a mare. Odin and Loki mixed their blood as foster brothers, and it has been suggested that Loki was a hypostasis of Odin, or at least that he represents the darkest side of Odin.

  3. #3
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Last Online
    Monday, July 16th, 2012 @ 01:14 AM
    Ethnicity
    CeltoGermanic
    Country
    Vinland Vinland
    State
    Alabama Alabama
    Gender
    Age
    41
    Family
    Married, happily
    Occupation
    Tree Wizard
    Religion
    Wotanist
    Posts
    428
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5
    Thanked in
    5 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Vingolf View Post
    Hmm... Loki is primarily a liminal, ambivalent figure. He is counted among the Aesir but is not one of them. His father was a giant.

    Loki deceived the gods, but sometimes he also got them out of trouble. He is called the friend of Thor. He is essentially a *trickster* figure. Thus, he can give birth as well as beget offspring. The eight-legged horse of Odin, Sleipnir, was born of Loki in the shape of a mare. Odin and Loki mixed their blood as foster brothers, and it has been suggested that Loki was a hypostasis of Odin, or at least that he represents the darkest side of Odin.

    Yeah, he’s the “trickster.” I wonder if he found the fire for us, as well..?? Loki being thus Lodur and Heimdall..??

    When it comes to Sleipnir and Loki and Odin being blood brothers I offer these quotes for consideration..

    Question 2

    In Lokesana it is claimed by Loki that he is Odin's blood brother, a claim, which seems false except Odin apparently acknowledge this. Can you explain this?

    Heimgest's Reply:

    Actually I'm pleased this was brought up as I had included it in my original draft for the "MAY LOKI BE BOUND" article, but cut it due to confines of space. However it is important. First Lokesana is the only one of the 'myths' in which this claim appears. If this claim were 'true', then such would be its significance that we could reasonably expect it to appear in many others. Nor is it given in Odin's list of names. We must therefore consider if this particular myth was part of the original myth cycle. The probability that it wasn't is further re enforced by the fact this 'tale' (because it is a tale rather than a myth) has been shown to be a very late addition to the myth cycle.
    For those interested in such scholastic findings H R Ellis Davidson is among those who have made this known.
    We know then, it was made up at a time when belief in the Gods was, at best, frail and ambiguous. TrueOdinic wisdom was virtually unknown and not revealed. Judeo- Xtianty was ascending in the Northern Odal lands, its propagandists in full flow (with state blessing) and its "thought police" in unrestrained and brutal action. A 'skald' that wanted to advance his career (or even remain living) would certainly not wish to present true Odinic wisdom, even if they possessed it, which seems unlikely. So this tale was composed by someone who not only almost definitely had no real belief in the 'Gods', but who also would have found it advantageous materially, to appeal to the ruling powers of the day.
    Odinism had been so denigrated, that the Holy and Divine forces were mocked, stripped of divinity and made into the "soap operas" of the day, as noted in part 1 of this article in ORB189.
    So this tale cannot be considered as part of the works containing the original ancient Indo European Odinist wisdom.
    Today, it is understandable that many will want to latch onto this as a genuine teaching because so much has been destroyed or hidden, that it is almost a case of "clutching at any straw" which seems to do with our religion. But now, as we deepen our way, it is important to realise this was primarily entertainment with considerable denigration of the Holy beings thrown in.
    As we know, an incoming religion, particularly a rigidly intolerant one such as Xtianity, will seek to "demonise" the previous religion. Odin was depicted as a demon figure - treacherous and given to base desire. By making the Chieftain of the Gods a "blood brother" of a negative force, it would both vilify him and undermine already weakening devotion and trust. Our ancestors took blood brotherhood very seriously, if you were thus allied, it indicated a special bond, so if Odin would ally himself with a wholly treacherous being, it would give the message, he also was treacherous. Now it maybe possible that in some lost and ancient myth - some reference was made to this blood brotherhood business, which the writer of the Lokesana had some vague knowledge of and chose to amplify. If this is so, and it is probably not likely, then the symbolism would be akin to that of Fenris (see part1). Or more specifically why Fenris is not destroyed but brought into Asgard. It would show just how insidious illusion is. Just how close it is, always at hand, even when we are consciously attempting to attain spiritual advance and it is a constant 'threat' to this development until the realisation of Odin Consciousness.**We must always be vigilant that our thoughts and deeds are free from Loki's energy.

    MAY LOKI BE BOUND part II
    The next two Hel and Sleipnir are not in fact ``blood offspring`` at all. Hel is the Goddess who presides over the Shining realms of the `dead`, which bear her name. Indeed her very name is cognisant with Heil shining health etc. I recommend the Circle of Ostara's Odinic Mythology for the 21st Century for a fuller appreciation of `Hel`.
    Hel's realm is a place of rest, learning, purification and renewal between incarnations. Once Odin consciousness is attained, the need for incarnation on Midgarth is ended (but some may return by choice to aid their folk soul and people). But until it is attained then the process of birth death rebirth etc. must continue. So we could say that because we are subject to illusion, that which prevents our attainment of higher consciousness, there exists a ``need`` for this realm of purging and renewal. It is a necessity due to illusion or a need ``born`` from illusion if you like. In that way we can easily see how a misunderstanding of Hel or a deliberate slur, could easily lead to Hel being called a child of illusion (Loki). But this Goddess cannot be regarded as a child of Loki in the way Fenris and Jormungandr are. The grotesque aspect so highly played up by some, is pretty obviously due to the Judeo Xtian influence in seeking to demonise our Holy Deities and terrify the population with the dread of death.
    Sleipnir also falls into this category. Sleipnir is that vehicle which transcends all realms. Sleipnir is not bound to one but can traverse with ease all realms. This shows there is a path and a way to travel, a vehicle by which all levels of reality can be experienced but not hold us in thrall. Again, it could be said the ``need`` for such is only `born` because of illusion (Loki). But again Sleipnir is not a child of illusion in the way of the Wolf and Serpent.
    Sleipnir is imaged as an eight-legged horse, and this of course has many levels of symbolism. It is interesting, though not surprising, to note that various yoga systems (practices which arose in the ancient Aryan times) have eight steps or paths and also, within Buddhism there is the concept of the eight spoked wheel and eight stepped way to enlightenment.
    Again a path of overcoming illusion and attaining higher consciousness is described.

    MAY LOKI BE BOUND part I
    When it comes to a hypostasis of Odin..well we do have our shadow don’t we..??

    In*Jungian psychology, the*shadow*or "shadow aspect" is a part of the*unconscious mind*consisting of*repressed*weaknesses, shortcomings, and instincts. It is one of the three most recognizable*archetypes, the others being the*anima and animus*and the persona. "Everyone carries a shadow," Jung wrote, "and the less it is embodied in the individual's conscious life, the blacker and denser it is."*[1]*It may be (in part) one's link to more primitive animal instincts,[2]*which are superseded during early childhood by the conscious mind.
    According to Jung, the shadow, in being instinctive and*irrational, is prone to project: turning a personal inferiority into a perceived moral deficiency in someone else. Jung writes that if these projections are unrecognized "The projection-making factor (the Shadow archetype) then has a free hand and can realize its object--if it has one--or bring about some other situation characteristic of its power."*[3]*These projections insulate and cripple individuals by forming an ever thicker fog of illusion between the ego and the real world.
    Jung also believed that "in spite of its function as a reservoir for human darkness—or perhaps because of this—the shadow is the seat of creativity."[4]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_(psychology)
    "The Trickster, Jung says, is an aspect of the shadow archetype, at least in its negative traits The trickster, obviously, deceives, often playfully, sometimes painfully.* A very sexual archetype, it has the ability to change genders and play havoc with the hyper-rational personality and community.* Examples of the trickster are Satan, Loki, and, in Native American mythology, the coyote, the raven, and the Winnebago trickster.* The*vampire*is, in fact, a kind of trickster, "able to change into many shapes, among them bats, wolves, spiders, butterflies, fog, or even a bit of straw."
    Clifton Snider

    http://www.kellymoore.net/trickster.html
    And there is the*trickster, often represented by a clown or a magician. The trickster's role is to hamper the hero's progress and to generally make trouble. In Norse mythology, many of the gods' adventures originate in some trick or another played on their majesties by the half-god Loki.

    http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/jung.html
    Here, I wonder if there is something with illusion and creativity..?? Creativity being an illusion I suppose..?? An illusion of what..?? The poetry of Odin perhaps..??

    Anyhow..??

    Later,
    -Lyfing

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 3
    Last Post: Monday, June 23rd, 2008, 08:54 PM
  2. Heimdall [from Jakob Grimm's: 'The Principal Germanic Gods']
    By Blutwölfin in forum Cosmology & Mythology
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: Tuesday, September 20th, 2005, 09:38 PM
  3. Janus, Heimdall, and Agni
    By Ederico in forum Indo-Germanic Spirituality
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: Wednesday, May 21st, 2003, 09:31 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •