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Thread: Who Here is Saxon?

  1. #11
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    I'd say that I am..

    Baron de Leving

    Edward the Atheling or “Royal Prince” (1016 – 1057) was the eldest son of King Edmund (II) Ironside of England. He fled to Hungary during the reign of Canute (1016 – 1035) where he married Agatha of Hungary. Their daughter, St. Margaret the Exile, was born in Hungary in 1045. After the death of her father in 1057, St. Margaret arrived at the English court of Edward the Confessor. With her, according to legend, came the forebearer of the Livingstons: a nobleman named Baron de Leving. Ten years later following the defeat of Harold Godwinson at Hastings in 1066, St. Margaret was in exile again. This time, she fled to Scotland, and Baron de Leving accompanied her; or so the story goes. St. Margaret married King Malcolm (III) Cænmore of Scotland in 1068, and was canonised in 1250. Her feast day in Scotland is November 16. Click on St. Margaret for more about this remarkable queen.

    Perhaps Baron de Leving (or more likely his forebearer) accompanied Edward the Atheling into exile in the early 11th century; for as Mr. E.B. Livingston argues so convincingly in The Livingstons of Callendar, Baron de Leving was doubtless of Saxon lineage. Mr. Livingston states:

    “. . . in England, long before the Norman Conquest, the patronymic Leving, Living or Lyfing, derived from Leofing, which in modern English means ‘the son of Leof’ – namely ‘son of the Beloved’ – was borne by numerous persons of rank and positon as their family or tribal name. It occurs as early as the middle of the ninth century as the name of one of the witnesses to a charter of Berthwulf of Mercia; and the Archbishop of Canterbury who crowned Edmund Ironside in 1016, and who likewise crowned his rival and successor Canute a few months later, also bore that name. So did another famous Saxon churchman, the Bishop of Crediton and Worster, and the friend of Earl Godwine, who has come to us in the words of the old Saxon chronicler as ‘Lyfing se wordsnotera biscop,’ namely ‘Living the eloquent bishop’. Besides these two great churchmen, there are many other persons bearing this name mentioned in, or witness to, Anglo-Saxon charters; one of these Levings or Livings being the Staller or Master of the Horse to Edward the Confessor.”

    http://www.robertsewell.ca/living1.html
    And, I know some Englisc.

    Later,
    -Lyfing

  2. #12
    Senior Member Papa Koos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauke Haien View Post
    The Transylvanian "Saxons" are not Saxon. Their language is Mosel Franconian, so one would assume them to be significantly Frankish in origin and they did indeed come from areas along the Rhine, with some Bavarians and Thuringians thrown in.
    Well bruder, I think I heard my großmutter cursing as she flipped over in her grave!

    Perhaps part of the Saxon tribe did take on some Bavarian & Thuringian dialects, that doesn't necessarily mean they ceased being Saxons, right?

    I'm interested in the opinions of the true Siebenbürger Sachsens here at Skadi. What think ye folks? Is the Hauke's scholarship on the level?

  3. #13
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    Hauke Haien's Avatar
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    2.2. Origin of the Transylvanian Saxons



    Transylvanian-Saxon historians, over a long period, diligently tried to establish the origin of the settlers who had followed the invitation of King Geysa II to come to Transylvania. The result is disappointing and is proof only of an incorrect starting point. Historians are in agreement on one thing: emigration did not originate from a clearly definable region nor did it occur in substantially large numbers at only one time.

    This is why the migration was not really noticed. Documents describing the event are not available. Only three reports mention persons moving during this period from the Lower Rhine region (Niederrhein and from the Wetterau region) to Hungary: Anselm of Braz in the Lütticher Land, Burgvogt von Logne (1103), Hezelo near Merkstein, (Footnote 7) in 1148; during the reign of King Geysa II, and a few residents from Oppoldishusen, mentioned as fleeing to Hungary not before 1313. It is questionable if they did in factt emigrate to Transylvania. Also questionable is the relationship of the "first Transylvanian Saxons" in conjunction with the names of the towns in their home region: Broos, Hetzeldorf, Groß- and Kleinpold or Trappold. However, it was not entirely unusual to name settlements in Transylvania after their founders (knights distributing colonial land, similar to "Lokatoren" in Silesia), for example, Hermannstadt. Its namesake could have been a "maior hospitum" similar to the Hermann mentioned in the southwest Hungarian Fünfkirchen (Pécs) in 1181.

    Documents written not before the last decade of the 12th century by the Hungarian Court, the Transylvanian Wojwode (royal governor, or voivode), the papal chancellery and the Transylvanian Bishopric, very seldom mention the new settlers, and their place of origin only vaguely. "The King's guest settlers beyond the forests" are mentioned in very general terms. The "ecclesia Theutonicorum Ultrasilvanorum" was spoken of in 1191, and the "priores Flandrenses" during 1192-1196. The name "Saxones" surfaced in 1206. After this time it was commonly used in the documents of the chancellery and defines the Germanic Transylvanians (Siebenbürger) to this day.

    However, all individuals possessing privileges that were negotiated by Saxon miners were called Saxons during Medieval Hungary, regardless in which region they lived: Bosnia, Zips (Slovakia) or Transylvania. These tradesmen were in short supply and were desperately needed to mine the natural resources. The Miners Rights, guaranteed to attract these workers and as an enticement to remain, contain an entire catalog of privileges which all colonists of Medieval Hungary could demand: personal freedom, entitlement to inherit land, self administration and judiciary, religious autonomy with free selection of priests, controlled and, therefore, predictable taxes, and other obligations. "Saxon" was, therefore, a synonym for a legal status, a status with privileges, and not, if at all, a name of origin.

    Research of the specific dialect spoken by the Transylvanian Saxons could not establish any correlation with an emigration from Saxony. Similarities with the "Letzelburger Platt", a Mosel-Franconian dialect encouraged researchers to identify this as the place of origin. However, Bavarian, North and Middle German influences have also been proven. Additional confusion arises with a thesis of a parallel but independent development of two isolated languages in the west and southwest of Europe, one in Luxembourg, the other in Transylvania.

    Newer historical studies of liturgies based on medieval Transylvanian liturgy books show parallels with the Church province Cologne, but also with the Magdeburg area. This could confirm the assumption that the migrants had a temporary stay at the Elbe and Saale or they were disappointed participants of the Second Crusade in 1147.

    Archaeologists assumed, based on finds of the so called gray ceramic, that a larger number of settlers emigrated from Middle Germany to Northern Transylvania. A cult vessel found near Schellenberg shows similarities with a jug from Riethnordhausen in Thuringia and has been connected with crafts of a Hildesheimer workshop. The Franconian architecture of Transylvanian Saxon houses and the architecture of South German churches point to a different place of origin, just like the similarities of a motive of a picture on a headstone found in Heltau near Hermannstadt and one found in Faha near Trier.

    Without a doubt, among the settlers were not only Germans, be they Teutonici from Southern Germany or Saxons from Middle and Northern Germany but also Romanic people from the western regions of the then German Empire. One of the earliest documents on Transylvanian Saxons points at Flandrenses who had at least two independent settler groups.

    These came from an economically highly developed region of the empire, where during the 11th and 12th centuries shortage of land was overcome through intensive planning and building of dike systems. Cities were developed through the textile industry and trade. Many knights of the first crusade came from here. It is undisputed that Flandrenses played an important role in the German East-Migration.

    Latins, settlers of Romanic-Walloon origin, were also represented. For example, Johannes Latinus, who arrived as knight but also as one of the first Transylvanian merchants, Gräf Gyan from Salzburg who frightened the bishop of Weißenburg, or Magister Gocelinus, who presented Michelsberg to the Cistercian abbey Kerz. Also to be mentioned is the name of the town Walldorf (villa Latina, "Wallonendorf", town of Walloons) and villa Barbant or Barbantina, a name which brings to mind Brabant in Belgium.

    Based on the described and often contradictory research results, answers to the question of the origin of Transylvanian Saxons cannot be considered as final. An incontestable clarification cannot be expected since it is probable that the colonists of different religions and ethnic background came in small groups from all regions of the then empire and grew, once in Transylvania, into a group with its own distinct identity, with German language and culture. In any event, their number was negligibly small and has been estimated at 520 families, approximately 2600 persons.
    Post: http://forums.skadi.net/showpost.php...99&postcount=2
    Thread: http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=22728

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    Interesting definition on Saxon. For a long time I assumed Saxon was a reference to the kingdom of Saxony, I.E. a Northern German.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Winslow Hunt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfang View Post
    Either Continental, English or "Diaspora?"

    And does anyone here know Englisc?
    I am and Anglian.

  6. #16
    Senior Member TeutonicMensch's Avatar
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    I do believe I have some contiental Saxon running through my veins. Last name of Irmert, which comes from Irmin (Irminsul). Haven't been able to drudge up much english research into the last name, but I am fairly certain that it stems from the Saxons, unless other tribes also held some form of reverence for the Irminsuls.

    -James

  7. #17
    Senior Member rainman's Avatar
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    I don't believe race and ancestry are the same thing. I think too many racialists are stuck in the past. Race is a group that is alive now and that you are a part of %100 (thus no half this or that). As such most of the old races are dead. If you live in a community of saxons and are accepted by them as a saxon I believe that makes you a saxon. And a modern day English community doesn't count. I mean literal saxons.

    The thing that has torn us from race is we don't have these tribes or folk communities anymore and we are forced to either try to identify with some large impersonal group that really doesn't conform very much (like white or English or German or whatever) or to ancestry.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Anfang's Avatar
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    I don't believe race and ancestory are the same thing.
    Race even diluted form is ancestry. In part it has to do with the compatability of the admixture.In any event, I did not make such a claim, although obviously you cannot have a certain ancestry unless you descend from people of a particular group with the same physical characteristics.
    If you have japanese ancestry , you are going to be partially East Asian.


    I think too many racialists are stuck in the past.

    This comment seems to want to invalidate Identity while seeming to be critical of something that was not brought up in this thread by anyone.

    Race is a group that is alive now and that you are a part of %100 (thus no half this or that).
    This is complicated somewhat, but I believe that i covered it by saying that it does depend on the admixture. For example a dog/wolf hybrid which is 75% wolf is going to be more like a wolf than one which is 10% wolf. I should know
    I have lived with them.You will not housebreak a 75% wolf dog and it will try to dig in order to get to small mammals underground. No one has to teach it that.and it does not have to be 100% wolf in order for it to do that.


    As such most of the old races are dead.
    I am sure your pronunciamiento will come as a surprise to many of them.
    Sachsens retain a strong demographic of integrity, as the Norwegians, Jutes, Estonians, many Chinese, Australian Aboriginals,
    etc, etc.

    If you live in a community of saxons and are accepted by them as a saxon I believe that makes you a saxon. And a modern day English community doesn't count. I mean literal saxons.
    One of my close friends is a Swede who is a Schsen. I do not know any Morocan Sachsens.


    The thing that has torn us from race is we don't have these tribes or folk communities anymore and we are forced to either try to identify with some large impersonal group that really doesn't conform very much (like white or English or German or whatever) or to ancestry.
    These folk communities still exist in rural areas, Germanic folk communities still exist in the Midwest and other parts of the USA. In part they have survived because of healthy zenophobia. I was married in a midwestern town where in order to be married, there was no question that you had to go trough the Southern German wedding custom of the "stealing of the bride", recounted by Sigurd, on another thread. I was welcome in spite of being from New York, because the people there are all Catholics and I was raised catholic, because I showed a faithful personality, I was conservative *and* at least half German. One interesting thing also was that the people of the community seemed to have an interest in our moving in to live within the community. If I were say, Mexican, they would have had an interest in us not moving in to the community. Even though this area is farmland without much "high culture",I respect these people greatly.

    In Germany folk communities exist in rural areas , and they do so all over Europe. In Bavaria, you can go to places like Marktl Am Inn for example , where Pope Benedict was born.

    As Much as I like Bavarians (and Bavarian food, yum) I dont feel Bavarian, because I am descended from Sachsen.
    our "self" is formulated from memories, intelligence creativity and perception.
    Part of our memories are racial .
    "Wenn vor uns ein feindliches Heer dann erscheint, Wird Vollgas gegeben Und ran an den Feind!
    Was gilt denn unser Leben
    Für unsres Reiches Heer? (Ja Reiches Heer)
    Für Deutschland zu sterben ist uns höchste Ehr!"

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    Senior Member AndreasBolle's Avatar
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    Being from Berlin, I doubt I'm Saxon. My family name is Bolle. Could I be from a line of Prussians? That said, I've come to adopt the worldview of the continental Germans, Irminenschaft, rather that Asatru.

    Mit freundlichen Grüßen / With friendly greetings
    ~Andreas

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    Senior Member Cythraul's Avatar
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    Partially yes. My surname which comes down from my Father's side is derived from an Englisc word, and my Mother's side are Dutch. So I'm probably more so comprised of Saxon blood than I am of Celtic blood - despite my more Celtic-esque appearance.
    "If by being a racialist, you mean a man who despises a human being because he belongs to another race, or a man that believes one race is inherently superior to another in civilisation or capability of civilisation, then the answer is emphatically no." - Enoch Powell

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