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Thread: Comeback for Putin?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfang View Post
    Let's go back to Rudyard Kipling on that Concept.
    Oddly enough, a more widely read poet in Russia than in England these days. Laurens van der Post documented an odd case of this when travelling on the River Amur in the sixties/seventies - his host suddenly burst out into a recitation of this very poem we've quoted, while stood in a boat halfway between the Chinese and Russian banks of the river.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vingolf View Post
    Non-white immigration is hardly a threat in Russia as in Europe.
    When you're hungry at night in central Moscow, it's hard to find anything other than Shaurma, Chebureki and Khachipury. Not especially Slavonic delicacies. The goats involved probably died the delightful death Allah prescribed them. Every building site you pass is choc a block with imported cheap labour from central Asia. Provincial towns are less badly hit, but this is the sort of problem that can only get worse. I'm sure you remember Kondopoga a few years back? An entire town doesn't revolt when faced with 'hardly a threat'!

    Putin hasn't been as quick as I would like him to have been in dealing with these problems facing the Russian people (and the internal health of our eastern buffer should always interest thinking Germanics). I am not sure if he's biding his time on the matter while there are other problems on his plate, or the Russian Nationalists are right to see him as an enemy as some seem to do (or are these financed by his enemies in more removed and influential positions outside Russia?), who is more concerned with Russia from a statist point of view than a more ethnically centred view...

    Anyway, as for the Thread Title - Semyon didn't sit on the throne very long til Vanya came back, and this Dima won't either. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_Bekbulatovich

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vingolf View Post
    These *immigrants* are old news in a Russian context. They have been around since the dawn of time.
    Azeris were only conquered in the early nineteenth century. Even in the eighties you didn't see more than the odd handful of students in Moscow. You never got them in smaller towns. With the advent of no holds barred wild capitalism, they swarmed in to take advantage of the new economic freedom and legal vacuum. The Slavs themselves were lacking in a Near Eastern bazaar trading mentality, and were no match for them.

    Georgians and Armenians have been around longer, but not so much in the Russian heartland, where they at first came only as nobles co-opted into the Ryurikoviches' elite. Merchants came to settle in the eighteenth century, but being Christian were not considered such a threat. There was some scope for assimilation. My former landlord had an Armenian surname, but you wouldn't think so to look at him. This was all largely a Moscow phenomenon, anyway, with Tver, Yaroslavl etc. still untouched.

    Other wilder mountaineering Caucasians like Chechens were unheard of until recent years.
    Well, perhaps its about time to realize that the *hero* is not an ethnic nationalist; just another ordinary Russian imperialist?
    I don't know if he could even tell you himself whether he was one or the other, as it's a complicated matter, but he seems less harmful than many of the alternatives, especially the puppets of your beloved 'West', like that pathetic Kasparov and Berezovsky and his stooges. Russia's main task at present is to deal with such threats, and then other problems can be dealt with. Putin himself discussed the need for priority, acknowledging that there are other matters he hasn't even begun to deal with. Being on a solid footing internationally, achieving true sovereignty, is number one, then internal security, then social and cultural matters. Even pensioners who are in poverty due to the collapse of the social system understand that and stand by Putin in large part. The moralistic anti-hedonistic traditionalistic things you hear from Nashi and the like seem a good sign of what is to come for Russians in despair at the aping of damaging 'western' fashions.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    Azeris were only conquered in the early nineteenth century. Even in the eighties you didn\\\'t see more than the odd handful of students in Moscow.
    And you were there?
    Russia has always been multi-ethnic/multi-racial. The Soviet empire encouraged miscegenation, and Soviet citizens of different nationalities were present in every major Russian city.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    Other wilder mountaineering Caucasians like Chechens were unheard of until recent years.
    Most of the ethnic groups in Caucasus originate from the Eurasian steppe, so their (pre-)historical presence in Russia is beyond doubt according to mainstream historiography. Miscegenation and intermingling has undoubtedly taken place throughout the centuries. So-called ethnic Russians are only the final outcome of this centennial process of ethnogenesis - united by empire, not by blood.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    Being on a solid footing internationally, achieving true sovereignty, is number one, then internal security, then social and cultural matters.
    Sure: Security, empire, *sovereignty*... all these *priorities* belong to the KGB-style paranoid mindset of homo sovieticus. Empire, not ethnos, culture, not *race*. I have never seen anything close to solid argumentation as to why a Germanic preservationist should have any kind of sympathy with a regime like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    The moralistic anti-hedonistic traditionalistic things you hear from Nashi and the like seem a good sign of what is to come for Russians in despair at the aping of damaging \\\'western\\\' fashions.
    The Nashist movement is not much more than an untalented joke very close to retardism, and has nothing to do with ethnic nationalism.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vingolf View Post
    And you were there?
    Were you? Might have been for all we know of who and what you are! You might well never have left Kansas too, for all your great awareness of the outside world. I know of that time by repute, as much as I know England in the seventies, before my birth.
    Russia has always been multi-ethnic/multi-racial.
    Repetition, the first trick of the brainwasher/brainwashed.
    The Soviet empire encouraged miscegenation, and Soviet citizens of different nationalities were present in every major Russian city.
    There was nothing in the Soviet Union to rival the simplest United Colours of Benneton advert. Stalin's old-fashioned policy on nationality provided for the continuation of distinct national units, within an overarching Soviet ideal, naturally, but there was no propaganda for mixed marriages. They didn't stop it, sure, but how could you in such an ideology? Every major Russian city had its fair share of Russians, Ukrainians, Belorussians and maybe Poles, yes. Shocking diversity there. Jews went where their careers took them, and still remained Jewish.
    Most of the ethnic groups in Caucasus originate from the Eurasian steppe,
    What a stupid thing to say. No they don't!
    so their (pre-)historical presence in Russia is beyond doubt according to mainstream historiography.
    Even if most were from that bit of Steppe above the Caucasus, that's still beyond the boundaries of traditional Rus', which didn't spread much further than the Volga/Don.
    Miscegenation and intermingling has undoubtedly taken place throughout the centuries. So-called ethnic Russians are only the final outcome of this centennial process of ethnogenesis - united by empire, not by blood.
    Aren't you contradicting yourself? THey miscegenated forever, and yet remain disunited by blood?
    How on Earth can you call local mixing between neighbouring related groups for millenia in a constant continuum of genetic relatedness, 'miscegenation'? You have a weird fetish for the word. The term can only sensibly be used when extremities of a continuum are brought into unnatural proximity, such as in the immigration of Indians and SubSaharans into Europe.
    Sure: Security, empire, *sovereignty*... all these *priorities* belong to the KGB-style paranoid mindset of homo sovieticus. Empire, not ethnos, culture, not *race*.
    All a sensible reaction to concerted efforts at destabilisation, infiltration, and downright aggression from an enemy with greater resources. Paranoia... Whose missiles are pointed where? Whose hostile treaty arrangements and diplomacy are breathing down whose necks?
    I have never seen anything close to solid argumentation as to why a Germanic preservationist should have any kind of sympathy with a regime like that.
    I just judge by what I see on the ground, by how ordinary people react to it, not by hysteric diatribes in hostile press agencies.
    The Nashist movement is not much more than an untalented joke very close to retardism, and has nothing to do with ethnic nationalism.
    Yes, yes, you go on listening to your BBC, CCN, whatever... It is a movement that promotes a feeling of unity among youth with their country, it's not quite the career thing that the Komsomol was but it may get there, it promotes healthy traditional morality and organises expressions of resistance against cultural imperialism from without. Aye, 'retardism'...

    And why on Earth do you delete your posts all the time? If there was anything against the rules there, I'd infract you for it. I quote everything you say, so it's not as if you remove the record of it all forever. Very odd, so you are. 'Paranoid', perhaps.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    Very odd, so you are.
    Guess we are in the same boat, then...

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    Stalin\\\'s old-fashioned policy on nationality provided for the continuation of distinct national units, within an overarching Soviet ideal, naturally, but there was no propaganda for mixed marriages.
    In the Soviet era, ethnic heterogeneity was so high that the share of mixed marriages reached substantial proportions (cf. the Russian historian Kolossov). The offspring were counted as Russians if one of the parents was Russian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    What a stupid thing to say. [...] Even if most were from that bit of Steppe above the Caucasus ...
    Confusion... Do you agree or disagree that they originated from the Steppe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    THey miscegenated forever, and yet remain disunited by blood?
    This is still an ongoing, dynamic meltingpot-process. Pouring everyone into the same mould takes time, and the empire has been constantly expanding for centuries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    How on Earth can you call local mixing between neighbouring related groups for millenia in a constant continuum of genetic relatedness, miscegenation? The term can only sensibly be used when extremities of a continuum are brought into unnatural proximity
    I was referring to the considerable mixing with non-European (Turkic, Iranian etc.) elements throughout the centuries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    I just judge by what I see on the ground, by how ordinary people react to it, not by hysteric diatribes in hostile press agencies.
    Are you saying that *ordinary people* in Russia are uninfluenced by their domestic *hysteric diatribes*?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    it promotes healthy traditional morality and organises expressions of resistance against cultural imperialism from without. Aye, \\\'retardism\\\'...
    So, their multi-racial, multi-cultural, anti-racist, anti-xenophobic (domestic, that is) profile/agenda should be regarded as *traditional morality*? Again: any good reasons why a Germanic preservationist should have any kind of sympathy with Putinism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    And why on Earth do you delete your posts all the time?
    Not all the time, only superfluous ones, clearing up misunderstandings, asking questions etc.

  6. #66
    Senior Member Anfang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vingolf View Post
    Guess we are in the same boat, then...



    This is still an ongoing, dynamic meltingpot-process. Pouring everyone into the same mould takes time, and the empire has been constantly expanding for centuries.


    Same as the USA, unfortunately.

    'I was referring to the considerable mixing with non-European (Turkic, Iranian etc.) elements throughout the centuries.

    -------------------------------------------------------------.

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