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Thread: Is Heathenry a Folkish Religion or Does It Accept "Outsiders"?

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    Is Heathenry a Folkish Religion or Does It Accept "Outsiders"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jagerzen View Post
    I should have used the word 'heathen' in the stead of 'folkish' because that's what I meant.

    Look I'm not defending anyone for their actions; I was just pointing out what I thought to be interesting.

    Sorry for having a debate like this in the introduction thread, Siebenbürgerin is right.
    But isn't (orthodox) Heathenry folkish by definition? Can a Jew be accepted by Germanic Heathens as one of their own, and be allowed to participate to their celebrations and offers? I've always viewed Heathenry as an ethnic religion and as a matter of fact I think that's what makes it preferable to religions like Christianity and Islam, which accept converts from any ethnic group/race. Isn't universalist Heathenry an oxymoron?

    I didn't want to be rude and post in someone's introduction thread, so I started a new one. To get an overview of where this discussion stemmed from check here:
    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=109813
    "Tradition doesn't mean holding on to the ashes, it means passing the torch."
    - Thomas Morus (1478-1535)

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    It's the religious expression of an ethnicity. So, people not of that ethnicity should not be allowed to practice. The Slavs, Romans, Greek, etc. all have their own pantheons and rituals.

    While there will always be non-Germanic ethnicities that wish to be apart of our religious expression, the most we can do is not partake in rituals with them, and direct them towards their own ethnic religions.

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    Senior Member Jagerzen's Avatar
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    I suppose some people think of the old gods as true gods of all-nature and all lands. There were for instance, non-Norse/Anglo/Germanic practioners of the old faith. They were few and far between, but there is evidence of it.

    The idea of non-Germanics being accepted into our folk religion is not my opinion and it is not how I see it. I just wanted to clarify that since you quoted me in the first post. Like I said, I wasn't defending the newbie with the Jewish wife.

    I just found it interesting since I don't see the same animosity towards people of partial Celtic descent being odinists. They're of course nowhere near as foreign to Germanic folk as semetic people, but they AREN'T Germanic, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jagerzen View Post
    I suppose some people think of the old gods as true gods of all-nature and all lands. There were for instance, non-Norse/Anglo/Germanic practioners of the old faith. They were few and far between, but there is evidence of it.

    The idea of non-Germanics being accepted into our folk religion is not my opinion and it is not how I see it. I just wanted to clarify that since you quoted me in the first post. Like I said, I wasn't defending the newbie with the Jewish wife.

    I just found it interesting since I don't see the same animosity towards people of partial Celtic descent being odinists. They're of course nowhere near as foreign to Germanic folk as semetic people, but they AREN'T Germanic, right?
    Oh, please rest assured I wasn't/am not implying you defended the idea.

    There were non-Germanic practitioners of Heathenry, but like Ulf just said, the Slavs, Romans, Greeks, etc. all have their own pantheons and rituals. The question is, not if a non-Germanic can be Heathen, but if a non-Germanic can be accepted by Germanic Heathens and allowed to practice their version of Heathenism (Asatru, Vanatru, Odinism, Wotanism, Irminism, or whatever you want to call it), or viceversa, if it's acceptable for a Germanic to honor Perun (a Slavic deity), for example. That's what I mean by "is Heathenry a folkish religion".
    "Tradition doesn't mean holding on to the ashes, it means passing the torch."
    - Thomas Morus (1478-1535)

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    Senior Member Jagerzen's Avatar
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    Okay, good. Thanks for clarifying.

    I think I would say that the concept shouldn't be accomodating to outsiders, but that is because I see heathenry as less of a worship of spiritual beings and more as a way to honour our ancestors and the true expression of Germanic ideals.

    And to further complicate the subject, if said outsider is of partial Germanic ancestry can they be accepted by the tribe and honour the same ideals? This question isn't about the miscegenation aspect, but about the religious aspect.

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    Arguably a major part of Heathenry is ancestor worship, in the lore even some the gods are recorded as ancestral to most of the Germanic tribes and so we worship them as ancestors as well as deities. So if you do not have Germanic ancestry I naturally assume you wouldnt be able to have as much spiritual fulfilment practicing Germanic Heathenry as otherwise. Non-Germanics can try and worship Germanic gods, but I doubt it will work for them properly and i think they will be far better of with just practicing their own folk religion.
    Let teachers and priests and philosophers brood over questions of reality and illusion. I know this: if life is an illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. I live, I burn with life, I love, I slay, and I am content.

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    Definitely Folkish!

    Among the many Folks in the US Asatru Community, that I know,
    it is Very Folkish, in a Broad sort of Way. Folks with Celtic Blood are always
    accepted as fitting right in.
    Folks of Slavic Blood, perhaps not as much. I only know one or two.

    But....many, or most go by the "Duck Quantum rule".........

    " If he or she.......Looks like Folk....Talks Like Folk......Has the Best Interest of the Folk at Heart......or...Fights For Folk.......They Must be Folk!!"

    It works for many of us!

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    Folkish Rebirth..

    Folkish Rebirth

    If an individual’s needs and subconscious instincts are oppressed long enough, a conflict will arise between the conscious and the subconscious – and a split occurs. This will, in many cases, give rise to an array of disturbances and neurosis, which are often reflected through self-destructive and abnormal behaviour. This maxim is equally applicable for an entire people, a folk. When the peoples’ soul – the Folk soul – is being oppressed and enslaved by alien values and compulsory adherence to an unnatural pattern of life, it will inevitably yield inner degradation and moral dissolution.

    For thousands of years, our people have been subjected to an alien religion that is as misanthropic and infertile as the salt deserts of the Middle East from which it originated. The dogma of the oppressor religion is in diametric opposition to our own instinctive Nordic human nature. Through our submission to this spiritual decay, we thereby oppress our own folkish identity. We are today expected to blindly resign ourselves the Western World’s present moral gauge of what is “right” and “natural”, and many of us do.

    The consequences of this are catastrophic. Because our outward, superficial moral compass is totally at odds with our intrinsic values as a people, a mechanism deep inside of us knows that something is utterly wrong; and it manifests itself in many different forms of decadent, destructive and unnatural folkish “neurosis” (We suppose you all understand what we mean by that).

    The people of today’s western world are desperately seeking, either consciously or un-consciously, to find what is right and correct. Some are attracted by alien beliefs, or any of the Christian disguised twins, while others fall into the trap of nihilism and materialism. Among both, denial of our nature and scorn for the assertion of folkish identity prevail. This is especially true where youth are concerned. More unnatural and harmful ideas are expressed with every passing generation born into this sick society. Today, we stand divided: we are torn between the call of our Nordic blood to break the chains of destructive modern thought, and the existing hyper-rational(1) status quo ceaselessly urging us to uphold it.

    In short, you can say that we – Allgermanische Heidnische Front – work to lead our people (and primarily the youth) to understand and assert our own blood-rooted moral values, to unashamedly represent and protect our Germanic identity, and to create the “certain general condition” that Dr. Jung said was necessary for our archetypes to re-awaken. We seek to create understanding for ourselves – both as people and as individuals. We are convinced that we can’t go in a positive direction in the future unless we know ourselves. A people without an understanding of its origins is doomed to perish – just like a tree whose connection to its roots are severed. For this understanding to be possible, we have to recover, confront and embrace our own “Shadow Self”(2) – that side of our peoples’ mentality that been has forced underground, and put it in the shadow of the cross for a thousand years.

    We choose to call our strife Odalism. A lot of the work pertaining to Odalism consists of studying etymology, philology, linguistics, ethnology, archaeology and related subjects (In other words studying languages, folklore, village/county names, archaeological findings/places, sagas/myths/legends, etc.). To see what remains of surrounding European culture and its traditions makes it easier for us to understand what we see, hear and read. And finally, when there are no academic or logical strings to follow – we are forced to listen to the voice of our blood.

    Another important aspect of Odalism is the respect, understanding and, most importantly, the agreement with nature. Odalism is based on will and joy for life, on the instinct of self-preservation, the need to search and find, the will to understand. Furthermore, Odalism isn’t only about a return to what’s ours, it’s also an eternal striving to emphasize and purify our people’s positive peculiarities.

    Odalism, or at least its fundamental idea, is the only thing that can make us live and think as Nordic inhabitants again. It is the only thing that can shatter the lacerating chains shackled to the soul of our folk – the only thing that can make us cast off the yoke of a thousand years of contempt for ourselves, nature, and for life itself.

    Now, as the final hour encroaches, Odalism is spearheading the resurgence of Nordic thought in Europe’s war for its ultimate destiny(3).


    Footnotes:
    1. When we use the term hyper-rational, it is important to note that we are not undermining rational thought, in fact we are the only ones truly applying it. “Hyper-rational” is meant to present the image of the typical vapid, arrogant European who is convinced that his scientific mind can discover all there is to know in this world whilst ignoring the call of his blood.

    2. Like outlined by C.G. Jung.

    3. This is a thought not so easily transmuted to English. Here, we mean to convey the German equivalency of "schicksals kampf": The final battle of our folk against the death forces. Upon this ultimate struggle, a veritable earth-bound Ragnarök if you will; everything depends.

    www.heathenfront.org/
    Later,
    -Lyfing

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    I'd say at the root every pagan religion is at the very least tribal. The tribe you were with determined what gods you worshipped. In fact it could very well be that different germanic tribes would practice in different ways. I'm not sure how strict they were about outsiders -- It stands to reason that if you could be made a member of the tribe through marriage or adoption than you could practice the religion with the tribe. But back then, the basic unit of society was the clan or the tribe.

    So if the husband or wife or adopted child of an asatruan wants to practice, cool by me. Just not "recent convert with no family or cultural connection to the AEsir" types. We aren't missionaries, for Frey's sake.

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    Religon and Ethnicity

    I don't think it matters where you were born, no one has a choice when it comes to heritage and racial ethnicity. I didn't choose to be Germanic, but I am, and I like it. But just because someone looks different or is related to a group that has it's own religion does not mean that religion expresses their views or touches their heart. I say we accept them for who, not what, they are.
    Their behavior, their ideals, their choices, nothing more.

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