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Thread: The Antichrist, Nietzsche. Book Study.

  1. #31
    Senior Member Jack's Avatar
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    Post Re: Section 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Marla
    How does Nihilism manifest itself as pity?
    Thank you for finally pointing that out, Marla. I'm interested in why Nietzsche equates Christianity with nihilism. Christianity does in fact put foward virtues such as generosity, fortitude, brotherhood and self-discipline. The internal war is just as important, if not more important, than the external war, and in this sense, Christianity is very militant. The Islamic concept of Jihad, holy struggle, with its inner and outer aspects, could be very easily adapted to Christianity. Christianity does not equal nihilism. With regard to Christianity, particularly Western Christianity, Nietzsche was simply wrong. Spengler uncovered this in Decline of the West.
    All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream at night, in the dusky recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity. But the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams, with open eyes, to make it possible.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Ominous Lord Spoonblade's Avatar
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    Post Re: Section 8

    There is the aspect of Christian teachings versus Christian practices. Sure, Christianity had its militant aspects, and in the Bible the accounts of God smiting are mort -but the basic teachings of Christianity are that of servile meekness. Besides, the essence of Christianity is to worship God, to bow down before him and accept predetermined values supposedly set by him. This is regardless of whether some firm believers choose to slice off the heads of blasphemers. It's based around servitude, for chrissakes!

    I agree that Christianity does not equal Nihilism. Well, what aspect of Nihilism? There certainly is some meaning of life for Christians and they seek it through their beliefs. Ecclestiastical nihilism, maybe?

    On a side note, I contest the Ecclesiastes was written by a half-assed nihilist; there is no purpose of all the toil under the sun...except for God. Christians seem to turn the other cheek far too often -maybe it's time to give a full moon

    Anyway, let's wait for Moody to answer for how Christianity equals Nihilism...as well as my original question of how Nihilism manifests itself as pity (which some unnamed Church militant switched around into his own statement :angry)
    Last edited by Ominous Lord Spoonblade; Tuesday, May 4th, 2004 at 04:21 AM.
    I envision a world where people dawning long white robes and elaborate headdresses run rampant down the streets, waving their arms in the air while screaming "we've gone mad, we've gone mad", like defrocked monks breaking the silence of ages past.

    Spoonblade: Sharper than a knife and twice as deadly.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
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    Post Re: The Antichrist, Nietzsche. Book Study.

    "The concept of 'God' was invented as the opposite of the concept of life".
    [Nietzsche, Ecce Home, 'Destiny', 8]

    "And Jesus, when he came out, saw much people, and was moved with compassion for them".
    [Mark 6:34]

    "Nihilism harbours in the heart of Christian morals".
    [N. 'The Will to Power', 1]

    "Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another ... be pitiful ..."
    [Peter 1, 3:8]

    "Pity stinks of the mob".
    [N. EH, 'Wise' 4]

    Marla;

    To Nietzsche, Pity [N uses the word 'Mitleid', literally 'suffering-with', cf., 'com-passion'] has the effect of preserving those who should perish.

    They become instead the objects of our pity; we actually desire them to exist so that we can lavish our christian compassion on them.

    Therefore pity is dysgenic as it leads to the preservation of sick beings [hence Xtianity's objection to Eugenics].

    Pity also therefore, INCREASES the amount of suffering in the world.

    Now this dysgenic increase of descending-life is the opposite to N's life-affirming philosophy.
    Indeed, pity furthers the out-look of Nihilism, which latter promotes descending, decaying, sick and suffering life.

    Remember, Nihilism is the belief in nothingness, and so desires everything which is falling into decrepitude.

    So the link between Nihilism, Xtianity and Pity should be quite obvious.
    Xtianity is an expression of Nihilism, and pity is one of Xtianity's main weapons.

    Jack;

    N has never denied the militancy of the Church; the Church has gone to severe lengths in order to tame the pagan Blond Beast and to make a pitiful Xtian of him.
    It is rather the ends that matter here; - what is the end product of Xtianisation?
    - to produce the Master Race, or to produce the Meek?
    "Blessed are the Meek" says the Sermon on the Mount.

    Please give references to Spengler's argument against Nietzsche's conception of pity.


    Christ suffers ['passion' means 'suffering'], and evokes pity etc., etc.,
    Last edited by Moody; Tuesday, May 4th, 2004 at 12:27 PM. Reason: added pic
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

  4. #34
    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
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    Post Section 9

    Given that clarification of any problems with section 8, I think we can go on to the next section which will help to develop Nietzsche's argument further.

    I will add before we do so that Nietzsche's perspective is this;

    that there is a polarity between the Will to Power and the Will to Nothing.

    The former is the 'absolute affirmation' of the antichristian, while the latter is Nihilism of the theologian.

    Will to Power and Will to Nothing have their respective conditions of Becoming [as in, say, Heraclitus] and Being [as in say, Plato].

    So this is the foundational philosophical outlook; Nihilism must be compared with Empowerment.

    To quote Nietzsche from another of his works;

    "Nihilism, the belief in unbelief, always reveals a need for belief, support and buttress". [N Joyful Wisdom 347]

    Now onto section 9 of the Antichrist(ian).

    I shall adopt a different style of analysis here. I shall take just one line from this section, a line I consider to be very important, and subject it to an explication.
    The line is the following:

    "That which a theologian considers true, MUST of necessity be false: this furnishes almost the criterion of truth".

    A startling statement, and a most useful one if we always be aware of the word "almost" in there.

    Reality, I say, is in a state of constant flux, or 'becoming' [as opposed to static 'being']. This 'truth' is terrifying to one who is of the 'theologian's instinct', who, rather than confront this challenging reality [for he is WEAK and would be destroyed by it], he seeks to falsify it and so avoid it in its totality.

    From this instinctual evasion the theologian develops the 'pathos of Faith', unlike his opposite number, the antichristian philosopher who confronts this reality [for he is STRONG and measures that strength against all resistance] and accordingly develops the 'Tragic pathos'.

    The 'tragic wisdom' of N's philosophy then is the antithesis of the 'Holy Faith' of the theologian.
    The former seeks clarity, whereas the latter NEEDS distortion.

    The theologian desires the unquestioned shibboleths of 'God', 'Salvation', and 'Eternity', and brooks no contradiction.

    In contradistinction, the antichristian must question everything and must seek out the forbidden; he recognises that knowledge and life itself is perspectival.

    So the theologian WILLFULLY creates a false world of Faith in order NOT TO PERISH from a reality that is too harsh for him to endure: he DENIES LIFE so that he may live!

    In all this HE IS AN INSTRUMENT OF NIHILISM - the Will to Nothing.

    As such then, the theologian has carried out a systematic falsification of reality out of NECESSITY, and called it a 'religion'!

    Therefore the antichristian philosopher must begin his work by carrying out a revaluation of the priestly principles in order to find out HIS 'truth'.

    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

  5. #35
    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
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    Post Section 10

    Nihilism has created two of the most "vicious errors ever".

    First, the error that there is a "true world" [ i.e., a world of eternal bliss].
    To Nietzsche this is a falsified world of 'Being' [as opposed to the Nietzschean actuality of 'Becoming'].
    This bogus 'true world of (static) Being' is called 'reality' by the theologian, while describing reality itself [i.e., the here and now] as 'mere appearance'.
    So we see in this first error a complete reversal: reality is called 'appearance', and a false world of Being is substituted fro reality.

    The second error is that of making morality into the 'world's essence', when it is nothing of the kind. Nietzsche says elsewhere that;
    "There are no moral phenomena, only moral interpretations of phenomena".

    These two gruesome errors constitute the 'old ideal' of Nihilism, and so are naturally beloved of the Christian theologian.

    During the Renaissance period in Europe, these errors were attacked as the will-to-power was revived and so did battle with Nihilism.
    But alas, the theologian instinct triumphed once again with its Protestant Reformation. It was this theology which both strengthened the old ideal and also subversively gave birth to German Philosophy.

    Kant was the epitome of this movement as he dressed up theology in metaphysical cant, and so was welcomed and championed by Germany's thoroughly theologicised academe.

    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
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    Post Section 11

    From section eleven we can arrive at a solid piece of philosophical guidance which Nietzsche calls;

    The Fundamental Laws of Preservation and Growth.

    1) Each man must discover or invent his OWN virtue;

    a) This virtue must be a personal, particularate, Necessity,
    b) This virtue must be our own defence,
    c) This virtue must be an actual CONDITION of our own life,
    d) This virtue must be VITALISING.

    2) An action's rightness is proven by the amount of Joy that its performance gives to us.

    3) Only work, thought and feeling" which derives fom our own "inner necessity", and from our own "profound and personal predelictions" is of any value to us.

    4) A nation must NOT confuse its OWN particular duty with a general or universal duty.

    -----------

    These 'fundamental laws' are obviously arraigned antithetically to the ideas of Kant; they are the result of N's sustained attack on Kant which is continued in this section.

    Kant's applcation of a joyless, impersonal and self-delusory universality to morality is decadent and life-endangering.

    We might feel that N stoops to sheer abuse when he calls Kant an "idiot" here; but it should be noted that he uses the same term for Jesus Christ later in the book [section 29]. Clearly, he means the term in its literal Greek sense - i.e., that of a 'naive' person [as well as in a personal nod to Dostoevsky's book of the same name].

    An example of Kant's naive judgement is his positive appraisal of the French Revolution. Here, as elsewhere, N's antithetical principle is in force: i.e., what he of the theologian's instinct finds to be good must actually be bad, and vice versa [needless to say, N abhorred the French Revolution].

    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
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    Post Section 12

    Whatever we may think of the priestly type, we would hardly describe him as 'rational', or 'scientific' in outlook!

    This is the man self-deluded enough to arrogate to himself a 'mission' designed to 'save us all'! - to 'redeem' us! - to 'deliver us from evil'!

    A self-appointed 'improver of mankind', who apparently believes that a 'god' all the way from the back of 'Beyond' has decided to use him [uniquely, of course] as a medium through which to impart his solemn, godly, 'thou shalts'!

    And yet this confirmed 'visionary', whose sole criterion for 'Truth' is his own sense of 'conviction', developed into the 'philosopher'!

    He no longer called his phantasms 'visions', but instead re-christened them with pseudo-scientific jargonese; such as Kant's 'Practical Reason', and his 'Categorical Imperative'.

    But the same priestly lack of 'intellectual integrity' prevailed.

    In this section, N's attack on religion and philosophy is staggering in its scope.
    The philosopher, he says, - in "almost" all nations - is merely derivative of the priest.

    *We should note though, that N makes an exception for the 'sceptics'.
    I take it that he is thinking not only of the Greek school of philosophers called the Skeptics, but also of all who can be called, generally, 'sceptical'.

    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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    Post Re: The Antichrist, Nietzsche. Book Study. Section 13

    Let us not under-estimate this fact: that we ourselves, we free spirits, are already a "transvaluation of all values," a visualized declaration of war and victory against all the old concepts of "true" and "not true."
    Nietzsche here stresses that his conflict with Christianity is not a mere disagreement; it is an actual war - a war for the future of humanity and, in fact, the future of Life itself. And this war is not something of the future; it is already being waged. What do we want - the last man (TSZ, Prologue, #5), or the Übermensch?


    Nietzsche then proceeds to attack the way science has been corrupted; how the mob, inspired by Christianity, of course, contempted the man of science who dared uncover 'undesirable' truths and viewpoints that were offensive to their tastes. They are not interested in truth; they only seek comfort. And every scientific advancement that threatens that sense of cozy comfort, is seen as contemptible. They want science to reveal the world as they feel it ought to be, not the way it actually is - their morality perverted even this field.
    I think we can see clear parallels with the way the masses treat every scientific approach to the racial question nowadays.


    "There is no truth existing which I fear, or would wish unknown to the whole world."
    -Thomas Jefferson, American president, racialist, and freedom fighter.
    Last edited by Siegfried; Monday, May 31st, 2004 at 11:43 AM.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
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    Post Re: Nietzsche a Nationalist?

    DaughterOfScotland; "IMO The Nietzsche idea is simple: If you are fit to live, then live, if not then make room for those who are. If you are fit to serve, then serve, if you are fit to rule, then rule".

    Moody; But that is only a starting point; the main question is "what is your ruling idea?"
    In other words, ruling is not an end in itself - what is your goal, what is the wherefore of your ruling?
    To create the higher man?
    Is that like the "New Man" of fascism?
    Is that like the "Master Race" of National Socialism?
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

  10. #40
    Senior Member Airmanareiks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siegfried View Post
    What about the following:
    What do you think about Nietzsche's attacks against nationalism? I have some thoughts of my own on this, but I'd like to hear what others think first.

    Anything that offers safety was bad. A collective is safety. And those that want safety are weak. They are not the Superman, above fear and a need for others. Thus, where ever there is safety, there is a coward, untermensch of a degree. So Nietzche did not advocate nationalism because it fostered relative stasis and safety which fostered laziness, not upward evolution of thought and breeding, where nature dictates who is chosen and not a civil authority.

    I take it that in Nietzche's utopia, the select few Supermen of history rise, create philsophies, religion, ideologies where other people are attracted to because others seed that power. Thus, nations inevitably arise from Supermen. First, it started with the Superwarrior who killed the most, then conquered the most land/people. A tribe was formed which overtook other tribes until he died. Then inevitably another relative Superman arose against or for him, et .......al....
    Jesus was made into the Superman which was created by a few Jews. IMO, he never existed and thus, cannot be killed. So you have Supermen of religion and history. You have SuperGods until their is one super God, and one Super Man. Ideas only. This leads to totalitarianism and World unity, communism. Until another Superman destroys the predessor.

    Machiavelli stated similarily in the evolution of political systems democracy to tyranny to oligarcahy to anarchy to totalitarianism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless View Post
    What is grand Style?
    Initiation - how imporant is this?
    TSZ before A?
    The Grand Style is the emanation of the Grand Spirit. To be aloof from mediocrity. The Pathos of Distance. N liked the Law of Manu for it was aryan law which is of seperation. The aryan caste was the grand culture. The Gold Platonic Philsopher-King caste, the Godi- Kon Jarl who God Rig begot.

    The Grand Style is like Beethoven Symponies. To be beyond pain and pleasure, the seeking the approval of others, the glory for others. The grand style was an effect of the grand spirit. Intiatiation is a modus operandi. The method is perfection and with perfection you become a superman, perfect mind/body/thought. You act as a superman which creates envy / hatred of lesser animals who try to take him down, thus the Superman is the White Beast of Prey for those that F with him. Thus, the grand style may be a war where the superman exterminates in battle, thus the beauty of war (no wonder the greatest movies are war movies]

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