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Thread: Subrace Types: Just As Ridiculous As The Zodiac!

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    Thumbs Down Subrace Types: Just As Ridiculous As The Zodiac!

    I am really critical of the whole classifying thing. It's very carried away with itself, much like that non-white elitist astrological rubbish(like Aryanism) from Asia. When will it end? I generally agree with ethnicity based upon genealogy, but also birthplace. This whole limited view of subracial types is inapplicable. I don't care for it. I judge people by their ethnicity of region, culture and lifestyle, not some percieved ideas about some archaeological effects onward to today. For instance, I think Mediterraneans aren't really white, but they are blowhards when it comes to White Nationalism as though they are afraid of criticism from Nordics about the issue. I think Nordics rely of fantasy connections between themselves and Mediterranean culture, as if they believe that "barbarian" rhetoric of no culture in the North and everything best comes from the south, unless they each are poseurs playing some sick and twisted game. You know what, Mediterraneans? I am happy that the Goths tore your asses to pieces, your kind deserved it at the time. Guess what, Nordics? I think you are a bunch of ignorant wusses who suck up too much to the Meds to avoid being strong and acknowledging our achievements, preferring to let their insults bind you. Come, challenge it! Let's see what you've got!

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    Post Re: Subrace Types: Just as ridiculous as the zodiac!

    Personally I am not against the fact that sub-race classifications exist. I think it is pretty interesting actually. I believe in a United Europe though as well.Somewhat. I am not anti-Nord or anti-Med.

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    Post Re: Subrace Types: Just as ridiculous as the zodiac!

    It does exist but many here just throw contradictory classification around which makes it look like it's all non sense. The only valid method to determine a subracial type is by measurement.
    .

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    Post Re: Subrace Types: Just as ridiculous as the zodiac!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodskarl Dubhgall
    I am really critical of the whole classifying thing. It's very carried away with itself, much like that non-white elitist astrological rubbish(like Aryanism) from Asia. When will it end? I generally agree with ethnicity based upon genealogy, but also birthplace. This whole limited view of subracial types is inapplicable. I don't care for it. I judge people by their ethnicity of region, culture and lifestyle, not some percieved ideas about some archaeological effects onward to today. For instance, I think Mediterraneans aren't really white, but they are blowhards when it comes to White Nationalism as though they are afraid of criticism from Nordics about the issue. I think Nordics rely of fantasy connections between themselves and Mediterranean culture, as if they believe that "barbarian" rhetoric of no culture in the North and everything best comes from the south, unless they each are poseurs playing some sick and twisted game. You know what, Mediterraneans? I am happy that the Goths tore your asses to pieces, your kind deserved it at the time. Guess what, Nordics? I think you are a bunch of ignorant wusses who suck up too much to the Meds to avoid being strong and acknowledging our achievements, preferring to let their insults bind you. Come, challenge it! Let's see what you've got!
    Let me get this straight:
    You're, for the most part, against classifying?
    You believe in ethnicity based upon genealogy AND birthplace?
    So, by your standards, if both my parents had 100% French ancestry, moved to Sweden and had me, I would be Swedish? That is what you're saying.
    Then, to top it all off, despite disliking classifications, you use those same classifications to pass judgement. Isn't that being a bit hypocritical?
    mtDNA - H_7_a (ftDNA) H_7_a_1 (23andme)
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    23andme: 99.73% European, .27% African
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    Post Re: Subrace Types: Just as ridiculous as the zodiac!

    Classification can be fun and interesting. However I wonder to what extent people really replicate ancestral types in their looks, especially when they are largely mixed.

    Perhaps there is some morphogenic mechanism in the human genome that causes people to resemble "types" to a large degree, with small modifications. Or maybe not.

    However, in a broad sense, especially with not-so-mixed individuals, classifying facial type can be somewhat predictive of other physiological and psychological features. I am not a believer in the "we are all the same under the surface" school of thought - I think humans have many subtle and sometimes profound differences regarding perception, cognition, memory, emotion, etc. - and that many of these differences have been strongly selected for in certain cultural and climactical environments.
    "Whatever is done from love always occurs beyond good and evil." - F. Nietzsche

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    Post Re: Subrace Types: Just as ridiculous as the zodiac!

    I think the reaction against classification is like those who hate astrology based upon newspaper horoscopes. A thug 'classifying' your picture on the net is not the same as having cranial and other biometric measurements taken, and in depth comparison of phenotypes. Either way, 'mixtures' have been studied for over a hundred years by scientists. Mixed folk arent 'muddled' ... they either tend to one of their ancestral types or another, or are a throwback 'reemergent' form of an earlier type, or they contribute to the emergence of newly evolved or 'stabilized blend' types.

    I would think the whole business was absurd as well if I had not had training in the area, as I measure within the populations of Iron Age 'Kelts' found in the old La Tene areas. No large population exists today of that type, so I'm a 'reemergent' type. However, judgements of my phenotype get the absurd range of: Borreby, Brunn, Atlantid, Keltic Nordic, Sub-Nordic, Dinaric, Pontic, Amerind-mix, Alpine, Mediterranean, Armenoid, and other sorts of silliness. There might be some issues with what exactly these terms mean, but the real issue is not with the science but with some of the uneducated wielders of the terminology... sort of like those who try to claim anyone who is skinny and good looking as 'Med', or anyone fat as 'Alpinid', or Nordics and UPs with exotic eyes and slightly everted lips as being part Asian/Amerind. Go figure. A good proverb says 'dont throw the baby out with the bathwater.' There is worth in subracial classifications, and I think I see enough correlation between population groups by haplotypes, and subraces by phenotype for there to have to be some importance to the study. Medical Science is already far ahead by paying attention to physical differences amongst people of various racial/ethnic/national groups ... ignoring race and subrace would only be at our own peril.

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    Post Re: Subrace Types: Just as ridiculous as the zodiac!

    Nature vs nurture doesn't apply, they are equally relevant, especially in a psychological context.

    Scoob, don't get too carried away with descriptions about archaeological findings. It is who we are today that matters, according our diverse origins and fusions, but tracking our history is good. Matching the two up don't work so well, but it is a noble effort to try and connect the dots, however sometimes futile.

    Frontiersman, I see you are paralysed by the labels. They don't apply half the time, I understand. People like McCulloch try to link up people in those ways though.

    I have one infusion of Cherokee blood, supposedly. I don't know those people personally(have read they are related to the Iroquois Long House dwellers, like vikings), but the Welsh look in me is stronger in my complexion than I thought it would be, when I have one recorded name from North Wales. I am not saying that Cherokee and Welsh are related closely at all, but their features seem to be, and my Irish side seems to enjoy that to show itself. I consider myself Nordic in outlook though(born blonde/blue pale white with large build), with contribution by Atlantic side(auburn/greenish change to hair/eyes with freckles). In fact, I feel bonded closer to Norse, Anglo-Frisian/Frankish people as well as Irish/British on a whole than the rest of Europe. I do not feel close to Danish, Swedish, German, Belgian, Swiss, Dutch, Italian, Greek etc(my viking forefathers were Norse but called Danes but geographically located from what is now old Swedish land west of Stockholm; my foremothers were Anglo-Frisian/Franks, but called Anglo-Saxon when there aren't as many Saxon names in my bloodline, and mostly by males married into the family). I believe that Anglo-Saxon was an exchange for the original Anglo-Frisian, dated from when the Franks broke off the Frisians after the invasions of Britain and were at odds with the Angles over land conquered(Normans, Angevins, Plantagenets), but since the Saxons also came in large numbers to Britain, the terming was changed to reflect the newer alignment. Yngvi-Freyr is the name of the Anglo-Frisians's god.

    I believe North Sea_Nordic-Insular(Norse/AngloFrisian/Frank) and Baltic Sea_Germanic-Continental(Swede/Geat/Dane/Saxon/Thuringian etc.) are two quite different things, but since they border eachother, they share a few common bonds. I believe British/Irish are different than Celtic, however, so many people want them the same, but like the last sentence, they share some things. Celtic and Germanic seem more Iberian and Italian, that those four share an Alpine background(Balto-Slavic-Balkan and Uralic/Caucasian peoples seem to be Eastern Europeans), while I feel connection to Iceland, Frisia, Brittany(including the north of France), Kjolen, the North/Norwegian Sea and Biscay Bay, but the Alps and Baltic Sea I have little feeling for, it seems alien to my blood, even if it seems historically familiar by associations and alliances of my peoples with them. The same goes for the entire Mediterranean/Black Sea lands. Whenever I see historical/political associations, they always refer these peoples as the chief Europeans(who have always tried to enslave Europe), but to me, they represent the buffer/border zones between what is extremely ethno-geographically European and the Afro-Asiatics. It is true that Northwestern Europe has the highest concentration of UP derived genetic strains, because all the older strictly Euro peoples have migrated there(Basques are Caucasians who migrated like Phoenicians), and when little happiness was found by encroaching Southeastern peoples, they were crammed up in their place and stomped on, which is why the initial colonisation overseas was begun by the British/Irish and Norse, which represent the largest ex-European collective in recorded history.
    Last edited by Rodskarl Dubhgall; Tuesday, May 4th, 2004 at 11:41 AM.

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    Post Re: Subrace Types: Just as ridiculous as the zodiac!

    "Frontiersman, I see you are paralysed by the labels. They don't apply half the time, I understand. People like McCulloch try to link up people in those ways though. "

    I wouldnt say paralyzed, rather it is that so many have little training in anthropology that they mislabel or have unclear understandings of the categorizations done by various anthropologists. As for McCulloch, I think he gets a bad rap here. I say this as one who opposed him for some time (directly to his face as well), but came to terms with his stance. What he says is much common sense, at least for the situation in North America.

    "I have one infusion of Cherokee blood, supposedly. I don't know those people personally(have read they are related to the Iroquois Long House dwellers, like vikings),"

    I do know them personally, as I live amongst them atm, and am related to many by marriage. They are linguistically part of the Iroquoian group along with the five Iroquoian tribes, the Tuscarora, and a few minor tribes. Cherokee, however, are racially a mixture. Their 'nation' is a conglomeration of three distinct peoples (Underhills, Overhills, and Middle People) who likely had various genetic origins. There is enough cultural and genetic data to suggest Cherokees to have blood from the south (Florida-Caribbean), the west (Mississippi and Ohio Moundbuilders) and the north.

    " but the Welsh look in me is stronger in my complexion than I thought it would be, when I have one recorded name from North Wales. "

    Well, which Welsh I spend much time in Wales, and the sheer diversity (and not from immigration, I'm talking ancient stock) from valley to valley is staggering. Everything from tall skinny long-headed redheads, to short stocky round-headed swarthy folk, and even near stereotypical 'Nordics' in some places.

    "I am not saying that Cherokee and Welsh are related closely at all, but their features seem to be, and my Irish side seems to enjoy that to show itself."

    No relation, and I dont think Cherokee or Welsh have any similarity in looks. I'll change my mind if you can find a native Welshman of pure Welsh stock for the past 1000 years, who looks like Wes Studi.

    "I believe British/Irish are different than Celtic, however, so many people want them the same, but like the last sentence, they share some things. Celtic and Germanic seem more Iberian and Italian, that those four share an Alpine background(Balto-Slavic-Balkan and Uralic/Caucasian peoples seem to be Eastern Europeans), while I feel connection to Iceland, Frisia, Brittany(including the north of France), Kjolen, the North/Norwegian Sea and Biscay Bay, but the Alps and Baltic Sea I have little feeling for, it seems alien to my blood, even if it seems historically familiar by associations and alliances of my peoples with them."

    No doubt. However, Celts did invade Britain and to a lesser extent Ireland. However, the old attempt to connect Celtic to 'Alpine' has long been disproven. Whom we can safely call 'Celts' included a wide variety of folks, but none that we could call Alpine in any way that Alpine has been used so far. Ireland, of course, is its own place: though it has a distinct mark of Norse, Dane, Anglo-Saxon, and Celtic ... just not enough to ever wipe out the folk who have lived there since man first followed the animals north after the retreating glaciers. Britain has far more 'Celtic' blood (less so in Wales, I maintain... far more in Southern and Northern England, and Southern Scotland ). But, again the modern 'British' population still owes so much to the folk of the Paleolithic, Mesolithic, and Neolithic areas.

    "(Basques are Caucasians who migrated like Phoenicians),"

    ! I'd like a clarification on that. Do you mean Caucasian as in the mountain range? As for the Phoenicians, I think their migration was more widespread (and spread thin) than the Basques (or the Atlantic Modal Haplotype associated with them) is. All the evidence I've seen is that us Western Europeans, and to a lesser extent Central Europeans, are in the main the descendants of the first folk in that region: and had migrated from Central Asia where we had already become differentiated from the other peoples who would come to populate Europe (I lineage).

    "and when little happiness was found by encroaching Southeastern peoples, they were crammed up in their place and stomped on, which is why the initial colonisation overseas was begun by the British/Irish and Norse, which represent the largest ex-European collective in recorded history."

    I think that the colonies of England, Scotland, the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and France were never as extensive as those of Spain and Portugal. Spain and Portugal, in fact, were the initial colonizers. The other Western Europeans, and the Northern Europeans, simply took advantage of new religious differences and Spain and Portugal's focus on the warm areas (gold areas) to sneak in further north (for furs, timber, fish, and potash). I think the collective 'Latin America' is a contender for out-stripping our 'Anglophone' collective... maybe not if we combine with the Francophone collective (and considering, that much of the latter is not French blood, but only French speaking.) Remember, during the Age of Exploration: use Celts/Anglos/Scandinavians werent doing *any* stomping. The world belonged to the French, the Spanish, the Portuguese in those days. We would have belonged to them as well, if not for amazing events like the destruction of the Spanish Armada, Drake's fantastic record of piracy, and the stabilizing influence of Anglicanism and Lutheranism. So much more that could be said on this subject.

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    Post Re: Subrace Types: Just as ridiculous as the zodiac!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodskarl Dubhgall
    I am really critical of the whole classifying thing. It's very carried away with itself, much like that non-white elitist astrological rubbish(like Aryanism) from Asia. When will it end? I generally agree with ethnicity based upon genealogy, but also birthplace. This whole limited view of subracial types is inapplicable. I don't care for it. I judge people by their ethnicity of region, culture and lifestyle, not some percieved ideas about some archaeological effects onward to today. For instance, I think Mediterraneans aren't really white, but they are blowhards when it comes to White Nationalism as though they are afraid of criticism from Nordics about the issue. I think Nordics rely of fantasy connections between themselves and Mediterranean culture, as if they believe that "barbarian" rhetoric of no culture in the North and everything best comes from the south, unless they each are poseurs playing some sick and twisted game. You know what, Mediterraneans? I am happy that the Goths tore your asses to pieces, your kind deserved it at the time. Guess what, Nordics? I think you are a bunch of ignorant wusses who suck up too much to the Meds to avoid being strong and acknowledging our achievements, preferring to let their insults bind you. Come, challenge it! Let's see what you've got!
    I agree completely! MAGNA EVROPA EST PATRIA NOSTRA!

    Constantin

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    Post Re: Subrace Types: Just as ridiculous as the zodiac!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodskarl Dubhgall
    For instance, I think Mediterraneans aren't really white, but they are blowhards when it comes to White Nationalism as though they are afraid of criticism from Nordics about the issue. I think Nordics rely of fantasy connections between themselves and Mediterranean culture, as if they believe that "barbarian" rhetoric of no culture in the North and everything best comes from the south, unless they each are poseurs playing some sick and twisted game. You know what, Mediterraneans? I am happy that the Goths tore your asses to pieces, your kind deserved it at the time. Guess what, Nordics? I think you are a bunch of ignorant wusses who suck up too much to the Meds to avoid being strong and acknowledging our achievements, preferring to let their insults bind you. Come, challenge it! Let's see what you've got!
    Frankly, I couldn't care less who's 'white', since I happen to live in the heart of Europe and not in some far-off tropical colony, and am interested in European ethno-cultural preservation.

    This stark contrapposition you seem to assume between so-called 'Nordics' and so-called 'Mediterraneans' is fanciful. Would you care to define a 'Nordic'? Is it someone of purely Germanic ancestry? Is it a Sami? And what is a Meditterranean then? Do you really believe all people dwelling in countries boardering on the Med. sea share the same culture or ethnicity??

    There simply is no clear-cut division between the 'Nordic' and 'Mediterranean' lands, just ethno-cultural differences which can be found as we move along the N-S or W-E axis of Europe. Genetically speaking a Castilian or Sicilian is far closer to a Swede or a Scott than he is to either a Basque or a Sardinian. All Europeans are somewhat related, and beyond Europe, we are related to our cousins of Indo-European descent in Asia (whether you like that or not).

    As for the reliability or usefulness of subracial classification, I agree, but wouldn't make an issue of it. After all, the only place where I've ever heard of this is... internet!
    BLUT UND BODEN!

    Some find it in a flag, some in the beat of a drum
    Some with a book, and some with a gun
    Some in a kiss, and some on the march
    But if you're looking for Europe, best look in your heart

    (Sol Invictus)

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