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Thread: The Fallacy of Reincarnation

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    Let me remind everyone that the point of this thread is to show that reincarnation is not the same thing as transmigration and is rather a misinterpretation of traditional doctrine. Whether reincarnation is possible or not, whether there is an absolute or not, etc., all of these questions would be best discussed in another thread. Let me say however that I only speak about things of which I have direct experience, and this goes far beyond faith. This is why I have stressed the necessity of actual initiation into the spiritual paths, for to know is to be the thing known.

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    Senior Member Aragorn's Avatar
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    I admit that I believe in reincarnation and that I shall rise again after I finished my present life.

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    Senior Member Edenkoben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil
    If you've actually read a spiritual text and did not see that it dealt with the path to the absolute then you're clearly wasting your time not only in this thread but in all spiritual traditions whatsoever. I don't wish to convert anyone. I post here only for those who are already interested in the subject matter. Hopefully you can understand this.
    Yes, more ad hom, more obfuscation, more painted-on mystery, still no evidence. Genug.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Þórir View Post
    I'm much more inclined to believe the Indian Hindu gurus than Guenon, who was a muslim. People like Swami Vivekananda were totally against Theosophy but still wrote about reincarnation.
    Neither Ramakrishna nor Vivekananda developed a theory of reincarnation philosophically. However, they had a habit of conforming their teachings to their audience’s views, so if one believed in a thing at a certain time then they acted as if it was real, but in a neutral sense. Ramakrishna himself deferred the question to God showing no interest in it. Vivekananda on the other hand was clearly heretical, having modernized teachings to fit science, said that reincarnation was the evolution of nature and the manifestation of God within. So here not only is his definition quite different from the spiritists but also one must recognize that he changed his mind on things numerous times depending on who he was currently influenced by. If one wished, one could easily trace his evolutionist influences to Hindu reformists who were in turn influenced by theosophists.

    I must repeat that he said it was the manifestation of God not of the rebirth of souls, which is a huge difference. The Bhagavad Gita explains "It (the self) is not born, and It does not die; nor is it ever that this One having been nonexistent becomes existent again. This One is birthless, eternal, undecaying, ancient."

    Likewise, Ramakrishna spoke of divine incarnations in humans but this also has nothing to do with spiritist reincarnation theories.
    "The human state is an exit." -Frithjof Schuon

    "Make me immortal in that realm where they move even as they list, in the third sphere of inmost heaven where lucid worlds are full of light." -Rig Veda IX.113

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    The Bhagavad Gita 2.13 and 2.22 speaks of the soul passing into another body at death, but this does not refer to reincarnation, since what is meant primarily by the body is psychical existence and the senses including the mental sense, which is made clear in 2.14. Moreover, spiritual practices change or remake the body or advance it by degrees just as transubstantiation remakes an object into more than itself by superimposing a spiritual element on it. This is made clear throughout this chapter whence the focus is on transcending the three modes of existence and overcoming all duality (2.45),* thus gaining intellection and conforming to spiritual principles. In the case of physical death, the soul would either be delivered and thus take on an immortal body** or transmigrate and take on extra-corporeal body, neither of which are human bodies.

    What absolutely demolishes any theory of spiritist reincarnation is the following: “the Self is not born, nor does it die; nor is it ever that this One having been nonexistent becomes existent again. This One is birthless, eternal, undecaying, ancient” (2.20) and “the individual soul is everlasting, present everywhere, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same” (2.24). Thus, unlike the spiritist theory, the soul is unchangeable, is not born, does not evolve spiritually, but rather since samsara is untruth, it is really a matter of the psycho-physical body conforming to a higher reality and dispelling ignorance and inferior action.

    Furthermore, karma in the sense of morality is not the cause of rebirth as spiritists suggest; karma really refers to ritual action, whence we read “never consider yourself the cause of the results of your activities” (2.47); “a man engaged in devotional service [rites] rids himself of both good and bad actions even in this life” (2.50); “all these performers who know the meaning of sacrifice become cleansed of sinful reactions, and, having tasted the nectar of the results of sacrifices, they advance toward the supreme eternal atmosphere” (4.30); "when one's intelligence, mind, faith and refuge are all fixed in the Supreme, then one becomes fully cleansed of misgivings through complete knowledge and thus proceeds straight on the path of liberation” (5.17); "In the material world, one who is unaffected by whatever good or evil he may obtain, neither praising it nor despising it, is firmly fixed in perfect knowledge” (2.57).

    Finally, contrary to spiritist theories, “you will be killed on the battlefield and attain the heavenly planets” (2.37), is symbolic, having nothing to do with the actual physical planets.

    As one can see, a person would have to go well out of his way to misinterpret this and other texts which very plainly deal with initiation and it is only in an atmosphere that is devoid of a proper initiation that one would even think to do so. Do I think this will end the debate about reincarnation? Perhaps not, but that is only because people stubbornly cling to things that are unreasonable and untrue. At the same time, there are plenty of reasonable people here which makes the task worthwhile.

    ----
    * “When a man gives up all varieties of desire for sense gratification, which arise from mental concoction, and when his mind, thus purified, finds satisfaction in the self alone, then he is said to be in pure transcendental consciousness” (BG 2.55). “When the embodied living being controls his nature and mentally renounces all actions, he resides happily in the city of nine gates [the material body], neither working nor causing work to be done” (5.13), which is “enacted by the modes of material nature” (5.14). “When, however, one is enlightened with the knowledge by which nescience is destroyed, then his knowledge reveals everything, as the sun lights up everything in the daytime” (5.16).
    ** Hence, we read of the transcendental body of the Spirit in 4.6.
    "The human state is an exit." -Frithjof Schuon

    "Make me immortal in that realm where they move even as they list, in the third sphere of inmost heaven where lucid worlds are full of light." -Rig Veda IX.113

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    Reincarnation is a poetic interpretation of reproduction. Your genes pass to your children who live on after you die. We are only the temporary tenants of our genes, the body lasts 80 or so years but the spirit, the genes, carry on in the next generation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wodens Day View Post
    Reincarnation is a poetic interpretation of reproduction.
    That is not the spiritist definition nor is that what is meant in Hindu and other ancient texts concerning transmigration. As I wrote earlier in this thread, your definition above only confuses matters more, and I feel it is a form of intellectual laziness, which pulls it completely out of context in order to relate it to something which people can understand who have no experience in that which the BG is about, be it yoga/yajna.

    We are only the temporary tenants of our genes, the body lasts 80 or so years but the spirit, the genes, carry on in the next generation.
    If I read this right you equate the spirit with the genes which is a huge error.
    "The human state is an exit." -Frithjof Schuon

    "Make me immortal in that realm where they move even as they list, in the third sphere of inmost heaven where lucid worlds are full of light." -Rig Veda IX.113

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    References to reincarnation, direct or otherwise, are only found in poor translations, for the following translation of BG 2.13 really must be considered inaccurate: “As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. A sober person is not bewildered by such a change.”

    This one is much more accurate: “Of being embodied one knows the physical nature of boyhood, youth and old age; similarly does attainment beyond the body never delude the sober ones. It is only sense perception…like summer and winter, happiness and pain appear and disappear; none of them are permanent, just try to tolerate it” (2.13-14).

    And 2.22: “Just like giving up worn out garments and accepting new ones, does the embodied [soul] give up old bodies and accept different new ones” must be taken in the previous context, for it goes without saying that liberation is attained by passing beyond the gross and subtle bodies, which this text mentions elsewhere.
    "The human state is an exit." -Frithjof Schuon

    "Make me immortal in that realm where they move even as they list, in the third sphere of inmost heaven where lucid worlds are full of light." -Rig Veda IX.113

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    The Fallacy of Reincarnation

    There is a detailed analysis by Julius Evola of the concepts of Karma and Reincarnation available here:

    http://www.gornahoor.net/library/Kar...ncarnation.pdf
    Liber esse, scientiam acquirere, veritatem loquor

    http://www.gornahoor.net

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    Odd that a person of faith , and a belief in an after life ....says reincarnation is a false idealism.
    Isn't re birth a reincarnation?

    The soul is an eternal essence , does the soul exist in physical form more than once?

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