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Thread: Borreby: Origin, Evolution and Legacy

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    Post Borreby: Origin, Evolution and Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Reb
    [side note: For the purposes of this discourse, I am considering Brunns, Borrebies, Falids and Baltids to be UP, but not Alpines]

    .

    Indeed, the origins of the Alpines lay even more far back in prehistory, i.e. the Middle Paleolithic, serologically related to the Nordics and the Dinarics, all three have been named as successors of the Neanderthal people.
    Borreby emerged in Northern Europe, somewhere in the middle neolithic, but I cant find precise dates and in its true form closer to Alpines and Dinarics than you surmise; most Borreby seen as UP are as matter-of-fact brachycephalized Faelids and Bruenns.

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    Post Re: UP Supremacy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Frans_Jozef
    Indeed, the origins of the Alpines lay even more far back in prehistory, i.e. the Middle Paleolithic, serologically related to the Nordics and the Dinarics, all three have been named as successors of the Neanderthal people.
    Who claims that?

    Borreby emerged in Northern Europe, somewhere in the middle neolithic, but I cant find precise dates
    I have a book from the 20ies with some dates, but I'd have to obtain it again.

    and in its true form closer to Alpines and Dinarics than you surmise; most Borreby seen as UP are as matter-of-fact brachycephalized Faelids and Bruenns.
    So what are Borrebies "proper"?
    "slavic" languages are absolutely arteficial (Read "slawenlegende"). The "glagolica", invented by a bunch of monks, is nothing but an ancient esperanto, creating new words, definitions and alphabet out of regional slangs.

    The craddle of European Civilization comes from the North. All blond people originate from the north. So if you see a blond-blue eyed Slovene, Russian, Czech, Polak ect., you can be 100% sure that his ancient ancestors originated from "Germanics" (Germanic = Nordic).
    "slovenja" was the settelment of the Langobards = Germanics/Teutons. "Poland" of the Goths and East-Vandals ect. ect. What do "slavs" tell us about their origin?
    Some silly story that they originate from some swamps in the east and popped out of no where into history.

    So you see my dear "Gorostan" [=Triglav], you are in reality a "Germanic" indoctrinated with panslav propaganda and historic fantasy stories. ~Dr. Brandt, former TNP and Skadi member

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    Post Re: UP Supremacy!

    The ones by Coon seem to be, as is the example from Danish anthropologist Kaj Birket-Smith.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frans_Jozef
    most Borreby seen as UP are as matter-of-fact brachycephalized Faelids and Bruenns.

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    Post Re: UP Supremacy!

    Who claims that?

    Raymond Riquet and Huxley supports something similar for Borreby(Borreby and Northern "Dinaroids" were among the tallest people in Neolithic Europe, averaging a 170cm, equal too....Neanderthalers:Neanderthal males were about 1.7m (5ft 6in) and women 1.6m (5 ft 3 in)...Wolpoff thinks that the Central European Neanderthalers give way to the present Central Europeans, likewise is thought that the Shanidar Neanderthalers should be linked to the Taurid populations;there is evidence of artificial head deformation like cradling, resulting in flattening of the occiput).

    .
    Lundman in Jordens Folkstammartalks about a Germanic-Romanic bloodgroup entity with high blood gene p, less r and about the same for q, obliterating in this respect a clear subdivision in Nordics, Dinarics, Alpines and perhaps some Meds as well.
    Contrary to the UP family the Alpine's arms are short and closer to the Nordic(still according to Lundman).
    The rest is based on my own fieldwork in this shady terrain.
    But where's smoke is fire.
    And I will find the fire hearth.



    I have a book from the 20ies with some dates, but I'd have to obtain it again.
    Thanks, any help to date these finds is welcomed!


    So what are Borrebies "proper"?

    Unlike Bruenn, Faelids etc, not only the upper face but the whole facial structure is low and square, very much like the Afalou samples, etc..
    While a brachycephalized Bruenn is still curvoccipital, Borreby is turriform, basion being lower than the vertex, planoccipital but usually with a marked depression at lambda.
    Last edited by Frans_Jozef; Tuesday, April 27th, 2004 at 05:33 PM.

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    Post Re: UP Supremacy!

    I do not understand you here. Is basion not always lower than vertex? I assume that you mean bregma instead of basion = median point on the anterior edge of the foramen magnum (Martin, 1914)).

    If bregma is lower than vertex the subject is usually higher skulled.


    Quote Originally Posted by Frans_Jozef
    [B]basion being lower than the vertex, planoccipital but usually with a marked depression at lambda.

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    Post Re: UP Supremacy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Volksdeutscher
    I do not understand you here. Is basion not always lower than vertex? I assume that you mean bregma instead of basion (median point on the anterior edge of the foramen magnum (Martin, 1914)).

    If bregma is lower than vertex the subject is usually higher skulled.
    Sorry, a common lapsus of mine, it's indeed bregma not basion.

    http://www.algonet.se/~ukforsk/hembygd/granham4.htm

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    Post Re: UP Supremacy!

    I thought so. No problem.

    Nämen jag tackar för länken. I have seen that site before but thanks for reminding me. I shall read it again. I might translate any information that is relevant for our discussion regarding the origin and description of the Borreby.


    Quote Originally Posted by Frans_Jozef
    Sorry, a common lapsus of mine, it's indeed bregma not basion.

    http://www.algonet.se/~ukforsk/hembygd/granham4.htm

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    Post Re: UP Supremacy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Frans_Jozef

    So what are Borrebies "proper"?

    Unlike Bruenn, Faelids etc, not only the upper face but the whole facial structure is low and square, very much like the Afalou samples, etc..
    While a brachycephalized Bruenn is still curvoccipital, Borreby is turriform, basion being lower than the vertex, planoccipital but usually with a marked depression at lambda.
    I see. So it's like the Afalou sample (also noted for its wide bigonial breadth) with occipital flattening, which I have seen described as Dinaric-like.

    I thought there was a continuation. Since I paid not attention to the differences - do the skulls from Borreby bear more resemblance to the current population of that area or perhaps the skull from Afalou bou Rummel?

    If it is the former, the population of Denmark / North Germany should be pretty much similar to it, provided there is a continuation.
    "slavic" languages are absolutely arteficial (Read "slawenlegende"). The "glagolica", invented by a bunch of monks, is nothing but an ancient esperanto, creating new words, definitions and alphabet out of regional slangs.

    The craddle of European Civilization comes from the North. All blond people originate from the north. So if you see a blond-blue eyed Slovene, Russian, Czech, Polak ect., you can be 100% sure that his ancient ancestors originated from "Germanics" (Germanic = Nordic).
    "slovenja" was the settelment of the Langobards = Germanics/Teutons. "Poland" of the Goths and East-Vandals ect. ect. What do "slavs" tell us about their origin?
    Some silly story that they originate from some swamps in the east and popped out of no where into history.

    So you see my dear "Gorostan" [=Triglav], you are in reality a "Germanic" indoctrinated with panslav propaganda and historic fantasy stories. ~Dr. Brandt, former TNP and Skadi member

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    Post Re: UP Supremacy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Triglav
    I see. So it's like the Afalou sample (also noted for its wide bigonial breadth) with occipital flattening, which I have seen described as Dinaric-like.

    I thought there was a continuation. Since I paid not attention to the differences - do the skulls from Borreby bear more resemblance to the current population of that area or perhaps the skull from Afalou bou Rummel?

    If it is the former, the population of Denmark / North Germany should be pretty much similar to it, provided there is a continuation.
    North Africa has its immigration stream of Bell Beaker folk, so whatever comes as blond, square-faced, snubbed, brachymorphic and planoccipital(in whatever gradation) in the former Barbary coast is either local and reinforced by a West European movement, or minorized relicts of the Beaker folk.

    Continuation in what way precisely?
    Coon hints on racial kinship in a north-south axis, the mesolithic Mugem finds in Portugal have indexmesocranic and-brachycranic skulls with steep arched backheads which approach the dinaroid planoccipitalism of the Dinarics and Borreby, however those of Ofnet, Bavaria are curvoccipital and between these two sites there is nothing that links these two regions.
    A second route via the Balkan can be discounted.
    Dinarids in the region are tardive, scant and difficult to keep apart of Armenids; Borreby and Alpines are even more rare.
    Maybe there is a correlation between areas where the neolithic gracilization was less stringent and overpowering.
    The Scandinavian mesolithics were broad and high-headed with very broad bizygomatic width and low upper face, altogether enough elements that under certain selective pressure and mechanisms like the occipital rotation and change of the basion(on which I will write soon a little entry) could have lead to this particular shape of occiput.
    Gerhardt in his exhautive study of the Bell Beaker folk goes against the theory of dinaricization conducted by Alpine mixture; wherever cromagnoids felt their influence , the mongrelization mitigates the rugged features and hafts a more rounder occiput.

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    Post Re: UP Supremacy!

    For convenience's sake, this is the skull from Afalou bou Rummel in Northern Aftica, called AbR-28 (Weinert).

    "slavic" languages are absolutely arteficial (Read "slawenlegende"). The "glagolica", invented by a bunch of monks, is nothing but an ancient esperanto, creating new words, definitions and alphabet out of regional slangs.

    The craddle of European Civilization comes from the North. All blond people originate from the north. So if you see a blond-blue eyed Slovene, Russian, Czech, Polak ect., you can be 100% sure that his ancient ancestors originated from "Germanics" (Germanic = Nordic).
    "slovenja" was the settelment of the Langobards = Germanics/Teutons. "Poland" of the Goths and East-Vandals ect. ect. What do "slavs" tell us about their origin?
    Some silly story that they originate from some swamps in the east and popped out of no where into history.

    So you see my dear "Gorostan" [=Triglav], you are in reality a "Germanic" indoctrinated with panslav propaganda and historic fantasy stories. ~Dr. Brandt, former TNP and Skadi member

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