View Poll Results: What will it be?

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Thread: Blood or Culture - What's Worth More?

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post

    More Germanic? Yes. More valuable as human being? I will leave that to others. But of course we could also start to wonder is for example Atlantid (phenotype) germanic "similar" to Nordid type germanic? Is dark hair dark eyes germanic "similar" to blond hair light eyed "germanic"? Do we want to open this "Pandora box"? I would't...
    That variation is also due to the ethnogenesis of the various Germanic people's: Indo-Germanic people mixed with Proto-Europeans. There is a slight difference in shading between those groups, hence the variation one finds within Germanic nations, but also between Germanic nations on average.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    More Germanic? Yes. More valuable as human being? I will leave that to others.
    That depends on the value you ascribe to being Germanic. If you want to preserve your heritage, i.e. you want that your children are Germanic, then it goes without saying that a Germanic person will be more valuable to you than a non-Germanic one.

    But of course we could also start to wonder is for example Atlantid (phenotype) germanic "similar" to Nordid type germanic? Is dark hair dark eyes germanic "similar" to blond hair light eyed "germanic"?
    Phenotypically, the true Germanic is naturally a Nordid. Fairly tall, ectomorphic, depigmented, dolichocephalic, high, straight, progressive nose, high forehead, sturdy chin, long legs. Those of other phenotypes have a certain degree of foreign admixture. However, while blond hair and blue eyes are native Germanic traits, merely those traits are not enough to make one Germanic either. Take for example East Baltids and related races. They may have blond hair and blue eyes, however they have clear, visible Mongoloid admixture and brachycephaly. They are also unlike the Nordids usually endo or mesomorphs, their chin is weak and rounded, their foreheads low, all of which are considered to be unprogressive, some may even say primitive traits. So metrically speaking, an Atlantid is much closer to a Nordid than an East Baltid is. However, if you mix with an Atlantid and you are blond/blue, you risk losing those recessive traits and having children with darker pigmentation. So it depends how much non-Germanic/non-Europid admixture you are willing to go for. Ideally, if you are Nordid, you should want to preserve all your traits, both genotypical and phenotypical. So the question of dark pigmentation vs. unprogressive traits is usually moot.

    Quote Originally Posted by SaxonPagan View Post
    Sól has already done this in post #160, where she informed us that the National Socialists considered Nordids to be more valuable than Dinarids, Alpinids, East Baltids and others.
    You realize that this was actually fact, right? The NS attempted to create a biological elite, a racial aristocracy. For example, in the late 1930s, they ordered the RuSHA to compose new and more stringent criteria for SS candidates. SS Captain Professor Bruno K. Schultz, a physical anthropologist, transmitted a set of criteria to the RuSHA Racial Commission, before which all prospective SS members had to appear for their final examinations. There were 5 general categories, ranked from most to least ideal:

    - "pure Nordic,"
    - "predominantly Nordic or Falic" [Falic = Brunn],
    - "harmonious bastard [cross-breed] with slight Alpine, Dinaric or Mediterranean characteristics,"
    - "bastards of predominantly East Baltic or Alpine origin," and
    - "bastards of extra-European origin".
    See more in these threads:
    https://forums.skadi.net/threads/101...ion-Candidates
    https://forums.skadi.net/threads/322...-in-Allgemeine

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernhard View Post
    The idea that race is irreplaceable and culture is not, seems a bit too simplistic. If we would clone Germanics and let them develop in isolation, there is no guarantee they will develop the same culture. On the contrary, it is highly unlikely. One race can thus produce different cultures (which history shows). It follows that cultures are highly unique and even more irreplaceable than races. After all, a culture also doesn't survive without its racial foundation. But a race can survive without its cultural component.
    Culture is an emanation of race however. We have proof of this despite having Germanics inhabit nearly all kinds of climates and societies. We can relate to the Afrikaners or Namibian Germanics, for example much better than we do to the Inuits, who live in a cold climate.

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  5. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matrix View Post
    That depends on the value you ascribe to being Germanic. If you want to preserve your heritage, i.e. you want that your children are Germanic, then it goes without saying that a Germanic person will be more valuable to you than a non-Germanic one.
    I don't know are these things that simple. I mean ... no doubt your own partner will be much more important to you than anybody else ... incl. the rest of Germanics. I simply want that my kids will remind me & my ancestors. I respect my heritage (healthy ways). For that ... I don't need any hierarchy system.

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  7. #205
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    You realize that this was actually fact, right? The NS attempted to create a biological elite, a racial aristocracy.
    Yes I do and I haven’t contested this fact. I disagree with the absurd extremes to which it was taken though.

    There were 5 general categories, ranked from most to least ideal:

    - "pure Nordic,"
    - "predominantly Nordic or Falic" [Falic = Brunn],
    - "harmonious bastard [cross-breed] with slight Alpine, Dinaric or Mediterranean characteristics,"
    - "bastards of predominantly East Baltic or Alpine origin," and
    - "bastards of extra-European origin".
    So where does this all end? You’ve already decided that the 100% Germanics are of greater value and should not mix with the rest, but even within this élite group (..assuming it actually exists!) there are still some who are superior to others as we continue to divide into sub-races ...

    How many more hierarchies do we need, and how useful are these on a practical level?

  8. #206
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    These ideals were formulated as a future ideal, a goal to go for over the next few generations. They had little bearing on the current population (unlike what the panic propaganda wants to make of it), even a good deal of NS high ranks had not fitted the "racial elite" definition, still they supported it. That's why Heydrich became the poster boy.

    There's nothing wrong with formulating ideals.
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  9. #207
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    H. S. Chamberlain made it abundantly clear to me that there was a distinction between culture and civilization.

    Basic/foundational to civilizations are: laws (according to Julian, Strabo, and Plato), storytelling/annals/history, organization (compulsion), political freedom (see MK), idealism (see MK), work ethics (see MK), medical care, sexual love/family/tribe, etc.

    Most of these are not cultural in themselves, but can be ennobled through the effort of great individuals. Carlyle, Gibbons, and Aesop are examples of such individuals. Aesop focused on animals (making them relatable to children) and placed greater emphasis on the ethics, not the story.

    History of religions certainly does not elevate man, it's just glorification of atrocities and stupidity. Histories which incorporate gossip and superstitions (i.e. Suetonius) are of no avail. Fantastic myth-weavers (i.e. Homer), embellishments which even Julian admitted were monstrous, profit little. And above all, pessimistic doom-sayers (Oswald Spengler, George Orwell, Arnold J. Toynbee) who only emphasize the obvious (decline of the West) are not helpful for the struggle.

    Art and Music are the key points where culture emanate from (and here is the only area where the Jewish community has always been lacking, according to Richard Wagner and AH).
    To this we can add Invention and Religion as race-preserving elements, without which mankind would have long gone extinct, even though these have been subject to perpetual abuse.

    As Nikola Tesla wrote: An inventor's endeavor is essentially lifesaving. Whether he harnesses forces, improves devices, or provides new comforts and conveniences, he is adding to the safety of our existence.

    As AH said in the Table Talk: "The admiration for what we sometimes call chocolatebox beauty is not of itself vicious; it gives evidence, at least, of artistic feeling, which may well become later the basis for real taste."

    As the historian Jacob Burckhardt put it, folk-song/folk-music owe their success to exceptional individuals. Otherwise the song would not endure.

    Once again, this brings us back to my as-of-yet mostly unaddressed post regarding whether NS was original to Hitler.

    ___

    What distinguished Greece from the other nations?

    I believe this Nietzsche quote from early Greek Philosophy is very concise:

    "Nothing is more foolish than to swear by the fact that the Greeks had an aboriginal culture; no, they rather absorbed all the culture flourishing among other nations, and they advanced so far, just because they understood how to hurl the spear further from the very spot where another nation had let it rest... the Greeks have subdued their inherently insatiable thirst for knowledge by their regard for Life, by an ideal need of Life,—since they wished to live immediately that which they learnt."

    Pythagoras, who was acknowledged by his critics Herakleitos and Aristotle, and by the historian Herodotus for scientific/mathematic achievements, had conferred onto the Greeks an unique systematic formulation, which previous civilizations did not enjoy. All the scattered useful knowledge, like today in occult and spiritualist circles and preserved in holy books, was being treated as an end in itself, instead of a means to an end. That all changed with him. That's why he made a round-trip through other nations, to find what best suited the Greek mentality/blood.

    If Germany wants to surpass Greece in culture, it'll need such a systematic formulation.

    ___

    P.S. The quotes from MK are:
    [Idealism] is and always will be, a necessary precondition of human civilization/existence;

    If this attitude [towards work] be lacking, then the necessary basis of a civilization is also lacking.

    Political freedom is a prerequisite condition for the existence, or rather the growth, of culture.

  10. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaxonPagan View Post
    Yes I do and I haven’t contested this fact. I disagree with the absurd extremes to which it was taken though.



    So where does this all end? You’ve already decided that the 100% Germanics are of greater value and should not mix with the rest, but even within this élite group (..assuming it actually exists!) there are still some who are superior to others as we continue to divide into sub-races ...

    How many more hierarchies do we need, and how useful are these on a practical level?
    There is only one hierarchy. Someone who isn't Nordid is obviously not 100% Germanic, there is some foreign admixture at play.

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  12. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matrix View Post
    There is only one hierarchy. Someone who isn't Nordid is obviously not 100% Germanic, there is some foreign admixture at play.
    You are hopefully aware that, as an Icelander, you are genetically about 30% British Celtic, regardless of whether you are Nordid or not? This is not meant as a slight against Icelanders, far from it, I admire your people as a central part of our Germanic peoples and I certainly have continental Celtic admixture myself.
    I just wanted to point out the inconsistency of conflating overall ancestry and phenotype. Especially when talking about individuals and not peoples, that becomes entirely farcical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matrix View Post
    Phenotypically, the true Germanic is naturally a Nordid. Fairly tall, ectomorphic, depigmented, dolichocephalic, high, straight, progressive nose, high forehead, sturdy chin, long legs. Those of other phenotypes have a certain degree of foreign admixture.
    As someone who has followed the “revolution” in genetic studies and ancient DNA when it began in 2015 and was obsessed with racial anthropology before that and is still very interested now, I can guarantee you, that at no point in history, all Germanic populations were phenotypically entirely Nordish/Nordic, let alone (Hallstatt) Nordid.

    And ancient Germanics were many things but certainly not ectomorphic on average. At the very least they were inbetween ectomorph and mesomorph and a lot closer to the latter. Typical ectomorphy is likely a sign of recent degeneration because it’s essentially the body build of scribes and not that of warriors.

    If there was a stereotypical ancient Germanic phenotype, it was the Reihengräber Nordid variant. Let’s see what Coon reports:

    Quote Originally Posted by Coon, The Races of Europe
    The prototype of the western German peoples who migrated from the region about the mouth of the Elbe is well represented by a series of skulls from Hannover which includes 41 male crania. (See Appendix I, col. 42.) Metrically, these differ from the Danish Iron Age skulls in being slightly longer, somewhat broader, and considerably higher. The foreheads are broader, and the face is wider, and in many cases a bit longer. These skulls deviate from the normal Nordic type of central European origin with which we are familiar in their greater size and robusticity, and particularly in their greater vault height.

    The skulls of the Anglo-Saxons who invaded England in the fourth and fifth centuries of the present era (see Appendix I, col. 43) are almost identical with this Hannover group. It is to this same specific category that the Spanish Visigothic skulls to which we have already referred belong. To it must be added two series of old Frisians from northern Holland, which are identical in every respect. [b]The skulls of these old Saxons, old Hanoverians, and old Frisians differ in a number of ways from those of other Nordics which we have studied. They arc larger than the Aunjetitz group and the Danes, and in fact any other series of Indo-European speakers that we have met, except the Norwegians. They lack the low vault and sloping forehead common to the earlier Nordics of Denmark, the Gauls, and the Scyths. The vault is moderately high; while the cranial index is on the border of dolicho- and mesocephaly. Compared with the other Nordics, the forehead is relatively straight, the browridges are greater, the muscular markings more pronounced, the cranial base wider, the face longer and somewhat wider.

    The type represented by these three groups and by the Visigoths seems to be a variant of the Nordic type to which the early Indo-European speakers belonged. [b]Its difference is one of size, and it appears to have attained this distinction through a mixture, in southern Scandinavia and Germany, between the older local population, consisting of a combination of Megalithic, Corded, and Borreby elements, and the purely Nordic Danish Iron Age group. [/b ]The resultant type approaches in some respects, but does not even approximate in size, the coastal Norwegian population which we have already studied, and it deviates far less from the central European Nordic than does the Norwegian group.

    This physical type is accompanied by tall stature, of about 170 cm., and by a considerable heaviness and robusticity of the long bones. The bodily build was clearly heavier and thicker set than that of the previously studied Nordics. That it was characteristically blond is attested by the pigmentation of living examples as well as by numerous early descriptions. This type, being a mixed variety of central European Nordic combined with old northwestern European elements, is not a true Nordic in the sense in which the word has been used in this work, and its common and exclusive designation as Nordic in popular parlance as in scientific works is responsible for much of the confusion prevalent in the identification of that racial type today. Since it is found among both West and East Germans of the period of dispersal, it is essentially the Germanic or Teutonic racial type. The eccentric linguistic position of the Germanic peoples in the total Indo-European family has its racial connotations.
    About these Danish Iron Age Nordics he said the following before:

    It is the task of the physical anthropologist to help the archaeologist and linguist discover the identity of these Iron Age invaders, whose arrival in Scandinavia cannot be put back earlier than the sixth or seventh centuries B.C. This should be relatively easy, for the newcomers buried while the older population presumably continued cremating their dead. The Danish series is the most extensive, with 42 adult male crania (see Appendix I, col. 39); of these only one has a cranial index of over 78. The series is strongly dolichocephalic, with a mean of 72.3. There is no trace of the brachycephalic element which had been so important in Denmark from the beginning of the Neolithic through the Bronze Age.

    The Danish Iron Age crania form a homogeneous group. They belong definitely in the same class with the other Iron Age Nordics of Lausitz Urnfields inspiration, and more particularly the purely long-headed element in the Keltic blend, for the low vault and cylindrical transverse profile of the Keltic crania are also common here. Except for the lesser breadth of head and face, and greater vault length, they closely resemble the Keltic crania of Gaul and of the British Isles, and those of the Scythians, while they are virtually identical with the Armenian Iron Age skulls discussed in the last section. The Danish Iron Age crania, then, are probably the same as those of the ancestral proto-Kelts before their arrival in southwestern Germany, and of the ancestors of the Scythians and eastern Iranians. These Danes were a tall people, however, for the stature of 25 males was 171.5 cm. This agrees with that of the earlier peoples of the same region, and with that of the Scythians. In this Danish series there was, without doubt, a selection on the basis of differential methods of disposal of the dead; the numerous Bronze Age population, compounded of Megalithic, Borreby, and Corded elements, could not have disappeared completely. After the various elements in the Danish population have had time to blend, we shall see them reappear.
    To all of this should be added, that the results are often based on a few handful of samples, almost never over a hundred and often from a single site, where a kinship group resided that might have well deviated from the average of the whole tribe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matrix
    However, if you mix with an Atlantid and you are blond/blue, you risk losing those recessive traits and having children with darker pigmentation. So it depends how much non-Germanic/non-Europid admixture you are willing to go for. Ideally, if you are Nordid, you should want to preserve all your traits, both genotypical and phenotypical. So the question of dark pigmentation vs. unprogressive traits is usually moot.
    If someone wants to preserve his own appearance that is of course a good thing and his right. But don’t make it an argument against others of your people based on ignorance about what “subraces” are and which were most common in ancient Germanics.
    And the day they sold us out, Our hearts grew cold
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    What do they know of Europe, Who only Europe know?



    Ancient DNA: List of All Studies analyzing DNA of Ancient Tribes and Ethnicities(post-2010)


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  14. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juthunge View Post
    As someone who has followed the “revolution” in genetic studies and ancient DNA when it began in 2015 and was obsessed with racial anthropology before that and is still very interested now, I can guarantee you, that at no point in history, all Germanic populations were phenotypically entirely Nordish/Nordic, let alone (Hallstatt) Nordid.
    May I ask one question?

    How do you see mixing of these different Germanic phenotypes (sub-races)?
    * Do you agree with it (being ok/fine for you)?
    * Do you be against of it someway (not like it)?

    And lastly ... do you keep that above someway more allowed, pretty similar or worse than for example mixing one 100% Germanic to another who is just 90% Germanic?

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