View Poll Results: What will it be?

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  • Blood

    91 87.50%
  • Culture

    13 12.50%
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Thread: Blood or Culture - What's Worth More?

  1. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    Different places.
    Do you calculate possible pre Indo-Europeans (I1 men?) someway pre-Germanics or only Indo-Europeans (R1 men) ... Germanics, Slavics etc.?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    Do you calculate possible proto Indo-Europeans (I1 men?) someway proto-Germanics or only Indo-Europeans (R1 men) ... Germanics, Slavics etc.?
    As far as I know, Scandinavians descend from European hunter-gatherers, farmers who expanded from Anatolia 8 000 years ago and a little of Pontic Steppe warriors coming in the Bronze Age.

    Y-DNA haplogroups identified to have been present in the Baltic Sea region before the Corded Ware culture are I2, R1b, R1a5 and Q. The Pontic Steppe warriors were R1a, and naturally left a stronger impact in Eastern Europe.

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  4. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    Do you calculate possible proto Indo-Europeans (I1 men?) someway proto-Germanics or only Indo-Europeans (R1 men) ... Germanics, Slavics etc.?
    "proto Indo-Europeans (I1 men?)" What does that even mean? Did you mean pre-Indo-European?

    Where I1 came from is a big mystery, by the way. It hasn't been found in Scandinavian Hunter Gatherers (or any other ancient remains before the Bronze Age apart from a single sample in Neolithic Hungary but I'm doubtful about the accuracy of that sample) so far and only appears in the Nordic Bronze Age.

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthWestEuropean View Post
    As far as I know, Scandinavians descend from European hunter-gatherers, farmers who expanded from Anatolia 8 000 years ago and a little of Pontic Steppe warriors coming in the Bronze Age.
    "a little of Pontic Steppe warriors" is an extreme understatement. The Indo-European component is by far the most important ancestry component for Scandinavians (above 50% of the overall ancestry).

    Y-DNA haplogroups identified to have been present in the Baltic Sea region before the Corded Ware culture are I2, R1b, R1a5 and Q. The Pontic Steppe warriors were R1a, and naturally left a stronger impact in Eastern Europe.
    Without defining downstream clades that basically tells us nothing, though, though because all of the macrohaplogroups are far too old and many of their downstream clades split thousands and some tens of thousands of years ago.
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  6. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juthunge View Post
    "a little of Pontic Steppe warriors" is an extreme understatement. The Indo-European component is by far the most important ancestry component for Scandinavians (above 50% of the overall ancestry).
    Basically, all Europeans descend from these three groups in various degrees, with some coming from an even additional group. Scandinavians have Pontic Steppe ancestry, but I figured it was not as much as Northeast Europe where it is supposed to peak. Still, it's possible and I could accept that Scandinavians are the Germanics with the highest levels of Pontic Steppe ancestry, since they've lived around the Baltic Sea and nearest to Northeast Europe. They likely have more than groups westwards to them.

    Without defining downstream clades that basically tells us nothing, though, though because all of the macrohaplogroups are far too old and many of their downstream clades split thousands and some tens of thousands of years ago.
    You'll get no argument here. I find that haplogroups are a quite interesting trivia to look at for the most part, but they don't exactly always mean that much as in everything when it comes down to it. There are populations that, autosomally, cluster very near each other without correlating in haplogroup distribution and vice versa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Juthunge View Post
    Where I1 came from is a big mystery, by the way. It hasn't been found in Scandinavian Hunter Gatherers (or any other ancient remains before the Bronze Age apart from a single sample in Neolithic Hungary but I'm doubtful about the accuracy of that sample) so far and only appears in the Nordic Bronze Age.
    Do I remember correctly that the oldest I1 evidence has been found from Denmark? And that has been only some thousands of years old (3000 - 4000years)? Yes, there have to be something which we will not yet know.

    I also read somewhere that type of I1 which Western Finns have is not the same as what is common in Sweden (= mutation/mutations have happened as those have been separated => quite some time ago).

    Plus I have seen some pretty interesting writings ... for example from Gotland island (much before its Golden era/Viking time). It has been populated already 8000 years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finnish Swede View Post
    Do I remember correctly that the oldest I1 evidence has been found from Denmark? And that has been only some thousands of years old (3000 - 4000years)? Yes, there have to be something which we will not yet know.
    It was originally I2 and I* that resided in Scandinavia. How I1 became Scandinavian is a bit of a mystery. What happened was possibly that a group of farmers and stock breeders replaced the previously Mesolithic haplogroups through a founder effect and spread throughout Scandinavia from there. Alternatively, I1 may have spread together with R1a-Z284 from Denmark to Sweden and Norway with the Battle-Axe culture during the Chalcolithic and in the early Bronze Age.

    The Corded Ware Indo-Europeans who came to Scandinavia from Eastern Europe are generally believed to have primarily belonged to R1a and a little R1b and I2. "However", they shared a lot of mtDNA with I1 carrying populations.

    I also read somewhere that type of I1 which Western Finns have is not the same as what is common in Sweden (= mutation/mutations have happened as those have been separated => quite some time ago).
    No, it is not the same. Finns mostly carry L287 and especially its L258 subclade. There is also the specifically Finnish L300. Only 5-10% of Finland's population are of Swedish subtypes, and Swedish-speakers overrepresented. The Sąpmi in Norway and Sweden carry more Swedish I1 than Finns do.

    Why Finnish I1 differs is also a strange mystery to be theorized and discussed. Given this and that Finns are distanced afar from Germanic populations autosomally, it makes cause for a claim to say that I1 is not a Germanic haplogroup, but instead has a pre-Germanic origin.

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  10. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthWestEuropean View Post
    Y-DNA haplogroups identified to have been present in the Baltic Sea region before the Corded Ware culture are I2, R1b, R1a5 and Q.
    Haplogroup Q is bit of an odd-ball. It has very high concentrations among the Amerindians of both South and North America (where it's by far the predominant Y-DNA), and strangely some sporadic pockets of 1-4% in Scandinavia, and some less notable ones scattered around Europe. Are there any evidence for it being more significantly present in the Baltic region during pre-historic times?



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  11. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    Haplogroup Q is bit of an odd-ball. It has very high concentrations among the Amerindians of both South and North America (where it's by far the predominant Y-DNA), and strangely some sporadic pockets of 1-4% in Scandinavia, and some less notable ones scattered around Europe. Are there any evidence for it being more significantly present in the Baltic region during pre-historic times?



    The authors of the study which is titled The Arrival of Siberian Ancestry Connecting the Eastern Baltic to Uralic Speakers Further East Europe claim to have seen aDNA extracted and found it. Their work is focused on the Eastern Baltic, though, and the ancestral population of Estonia, so I do not know if I can personally say that they explicitly claim Q was found in Scandinavia. To my excuse, I wrote the Baltic Sea region.

    ChrY lineages found in the Baltic Sea region before the CWC belong to hgs I, R1b, R1a5 and Q [10-13,17,32].

    Sources are:

    (10) Jones ER, Zarina G, Moiseyev V, Lightfoot E, Nigst PR, Manica A, Pinhasi R, Bradley DG.The Neolithic transition in the Baltic was not driven by admixture with early European farmers.Curr Biol CB.2017; 27:576–582.[PubMed: 28162894]
    (11) Mittnik A, Wang C-C, Pfrengle S, Daubaras M, Zariņa G, Hallgren F, Allmäe R, Khartanovich V, Moiseyev V, Tõrv M, et al.The genetic prehistory of the Baltic Sea region.Nat Commun.2018; 9
    (12) Mathieson I, Alpaslan-Roodenberg S, Posth C, Szécsényi-Nagy A, Rohland N, Mallick S, Olalde I, Broomandkhoshbacht N, Candilio F, Cheronet O, et al.The genomic history of southeastern Europe.Nature.2018; 555:197–203.[PubMed: 29466330]
    (13) Saag L, Varul L, Scheib CL, Stenderup J, Allentoft ME, Saag L, Pagani L, Reidla M, Tambets K, Metspalu E, et al.Extensive farming in Estonia started through a sex-biased migration from the Steppe.Curr Biol CB.2017; 27:2185–2193.e6.[PubMed: 28712569]
    (17) Skoglund P, Malmström H, Omrak A, Raghavan M, Valdiosera C, Günther T, Hall P, Tambets K, Parik J, Sjögren K-G, et al.Genomic diversity and admixture differs for Stone-Age Scandinavian foragers and farmers.Science.2014; 344:747–750.[PubMed: 24762536]
    (32) Günther T, Malmström H, Svensson EM, Omrak A, Sįnchez-Quinto F, Kılınē GM, Krzewińska M, Eriksson G, Fraser M, Edlund H, et al.Population genomics of Mesolithic Scandinavia: Investigating early postglacial migration routes and high-latitude adaptation.PLoS Biol.2018; 16:e2003703.[PubMed: 29315301]

  12. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthWestEuropean View Post
    Their work is focused on the Eastern Baltic, though, and the ancestral population of Estonia, so I do not know if I can personally say that they explicitly claim Q was found in Scandinavia. To my excuse, I wrote the Baltic Sea region.
    Yeah, I know. I meant if Q was significantly more present in the Baltic region in pre-historic times compared to today.
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  14. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    Yeah, I know. I meant if Q was significantly more present in the Baltic region in pre-historic times compared to today.
    Hmm, I cannot find a source that says so. If it was present since before CWC and I1 largely replaced other haplogroups, and Q still survives in Scandinavia to this day, that indeed raises the question, I agree.

    This is not my expertise, but I recall reading that Native Americans partially share the same ancestral population with Europeans/Caucasoids.

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