View Poll Results: What will it be?

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  • Blood

    92 87.62%
  • Culture

    13 12.38%
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Thread: Blood or Culture - What's Worth More?

  1. #101
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    Neither is the only realistic answer I can give. Both sound like mentally and spiritually weak people who I would not want to relate to or know.

    Both are rejecting their heritage and neither would carry the genes I would want if I were to have children one day. Plus I have a hard time tolerating people as it is.
    "For the authentic revolutionary conservative, what really counts is to be faithful not to past forms and institutions, but rather to principles of which such forms and institutions have been particular expressions, adequate for a specific period of time and in a specific geographical area." Julius Evola - Men Among the Ruins

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    Do You Feel More Akin to People Who Share Your Biological or Cultural Background?

    I've come to realize that despite my predominately German ancestry, I still feel more of a kinship to the English. I'm certain this is because of the heavy English influence on this region.

    This makes me wonder how the rest of you feel on this matter. Who do you find you have more in common with? Obviously, this question is aimed towards those who are living in areas in which they are the ethnic minority.

    I apologize if this topic would fit better in another location.

  3. #103
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    I feel a greater connection to those who are biologically similar to me. For example, I find I have a closer rapport with individuals of English or continental German origin, or even a native of those lands, than a Canadian national of non-Germanic origin. Although, certain cultural aspects tend to be entwined with ethnic origin. Religion plays a large part in this, as well as political sentiment, and that is why I, ironically, do not connect well with Celts, and certainly no one outside of the Celtogermanic fold.

  4. #104
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    I think the question here truly is "Can ethnicity be learned?" The answer is obvious: no. The fact that a negro could appear a better German than a native German is a poor reflection on the German in question, no doubt, but it does not make that negro any more of a German. Culture is not learned, it is not worn like an article of clothing, it is inherent and organic to nationhood. Anyone can get a tattoo, but only some have birthmarks- anyone can pretend to be Germanic and do a fine job with it, but only we whose ancestors, whose family has the Germanic mark can claim with validity to be Germanic.
    οὐκ ἐμοῦ, ἀλλὰ τοῦ λόγου ἀκούσαντας ὁμολογεῖν σοφόν ἐστιν ἓν πάντα εἶναί.
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  5. #105
    Senior Member Stygian Cellarius's Avatar
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    Race vs. Culture

    [Note: thread split from here.]

    Quote Originally Posted by Todesengel
    If in some centuries Germany is comprised of brownies in a folk costumes speaking dialects then it will be pointless because we will have lost the battle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    Also incorrect. It is a balance between the two. A future where Germany is full of Germans, but which are no longer in touch with their ancestral culture is no more preferable than a Germany with no ethnic Germans still in touch with German traditional culture.

    Japan is the most homogenous developed nation (well over 99% ethnically pure), but many have fallen out of touch with their traditional culture, in some cities it is only the mentality that remains, the rest is but a mere shroud of history.

    The point is: It needs a balance, or an importance placed upon both. Cultural and Ethnic Preservation are both very important, yet either is absolutely useless without at least some importance placed upon the other.
    I beg to differ. There is nothing incorrect about Todesengle's comment. The situation she describes absolutely is pointless. Existence of Culture/Tradition, but non-existence of Race is a non-desirable situation. Existence of Race, but non-existence of Culture/Tradition is also non-desirable. Race and Culture/Tradition (not synonymous, but both relevant to this) are both very important as you say and there is truth in your words, but they are not equally important. Race is paramount over all, Culture/Tradition is of secondary importance. Besides, the whole point of Culture/Tradition's existence is to assist and preserve the life from which it came. To give equal value to both would be like giving equal value to software (including anti-virus) and the computer.

    Culture and Tradition are absolutely important to preserve, but the source of them is Race. Culture and Tradition come from Race, Race does not come from Culture/Tradition. So logically, it follows that if a choice had to be made between the two, it would make sense to preserve the source over of the product. The creator over of the creation.

    If we were somehow separated from our Traditional Culture, say we all woke up on an island one day and had no memories. We would simply create new Culture/Tradition. It would be equally Germanic because its source would be the Germanic mind.

    Once Culture/Tradition is non-existent, we can recreate it, once Race is non-existent, we cannot.
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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by infratetraskelion View Post
    Besides, the whole point of Culture/Tradition's existence is to assist and preserve the life from which it came. To give equal value to both would be like giving equal value to software (including anti-virus) and the computer.
    I will add a second analogy: Assume you have a box of chocolate - Race is the box, Culture is that which fills it.

    Without the box, the chocolates usually contained (culture) would not be bound to certain boundaries, flying around stray. However, without the chocolate, it would merely be an empty box. Both can technically exist without the other, but either is absolutely impracticable and not preferable. Of course you could re-fill the box with potato wedges, but well... wouldn't be quite a box of chocolates then, would it?

    Even with your own analogy - a computer without any software is useless to the user. It is true that the software cannot exist without the hardware, but it's the software which gives it its distinctive soul, its character, which sets the computer in question apart from another computer; the software makes the difference as to whether it

    In short, your computer analogy only minds me to place more importance on culture - as long as the race is still a constant contributor, it is the culture which refines this. Without culture, we would all be just "White", there'd be nothing to set the Germanic apart from the Slav, the Balt, the Celt, the Romanic, the Hellene, you name it...

    So logically, it follows that if a choice had to be made between the two, it would make sense to preserve the source over of the product.
    Should we have to make a choice between the two, though? Of course, you cannot have milk without a cow --- but what use is a cow which does no longer give milk?

    You're left with the source, but when the source cannot render a product, it is just like an empty box, or like a computer without software - useless.

    If you take our culture away, our race is essentially like comatose patients on life-support: Alive, but essentially unable to contribute anything productive, because essentially, we would not function.

    If we were somehow separated from our Traditional Culture, say we all woke up on an island one day and had no memories.
    We are however not separated from our traditional culture, and not on a lonely island. The flame of our traditional culture is still flickering - we must seek to rekindle that flame instead of just resigning ourselves to the fact: "Ah well, it's flickering anyway --- let's just have it go out, we can always light a different candle; light is light".

    That is defeatism. Essentially it is like saying - "Who cares if we're all Islamic - we'll still be of the same race.

    Have you ever noticed that they're first trying to destroy our culture before they try to destroy our race, knowing that it's even easier to destroy an empty box than one which still has contents enshrined therein?

    We would simply create new Culture/Tradition. It would be equally Germanic because its source would be the Germanic mind.
    For that, first, Germanic would have to be a racial integer. Even when you take it down to the sub-racial, this is however not the case. Germanic is largely a cultural distinction, which sets us apart from others of "Europid" or even "Nordish" race (there are no racial or sub-racial phenotypes exclusive to Germanics).

    It is culture, not race, which sets us apart from other Indo-Europeans, as such with culture gone, we would simply no longer be Germanic. In fact, with culture gone we'd make ourselves susceptible to adopting our neighbouring cultures --- and if we adopted Slavic culture with all Germanic culture eradicated: would we still be as Germanic as we are?

    Once Culture/Tradition is non-existent, we can recreate it, once Race is non-existent, we cannot.
    With all memory gone, it can never be recreated in the same way. Different decisions at different points would lead to a different culture.
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  7. #107
    Senior Member Stygian Cellarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    I will add a second analogy: Assume you have a box of chocolate - Race is the box, Culture is that which fills it.

    Without the box, the chocolates usually contained (culture) would not be bound to certain boundaries, flying around stray. However, without the chocolate, it would merely be an empty box. Both can technically exist without the other, but either is absolutely impracticable and not preferable. Of course you could re-fill the box with potato wedges, but well... wouldn't be quite a box of chocolates then, would it?
    That would be a good analogy if we imagine the box generating the chocolate, which is the fundamental relationship between race and culture. Filling the box with potato wedges would be equivalent to a race that produces bad culture. That is symptomatic of a degenerated race. So here the focus is still on Race. Preserving Race so we do not end up with potato wedges.

    And yes, preserving race and culture is most ideal and preferable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    Even with your own analogy - a computer without any software is useless to the user. It is true that the software cannot exist without the hardware, but it's the software which gives it its distinctive soul, its character, which sets the computer in question apart from another computer; the software makes the difference as to whether it
    By saying a computer is useless without software we end up with a paradox. The computer was used to create the software, but if the computer is useless without software than how can it ever make software? Software cannot come before (or at the same time as) the computer.

    Lets strengthen the analogy. If we say a computer is composed of 3 parts; The hardware, the operating system and the software. Hardware would be the body of the Race, Operating System the mind and Software the Culture. That is actually the model I had in mind.

    It is the Operating System that we ultimately want to preserve. It is useless without the medium of the computer, so that by default must be preserved as well. The software however, can be replicated so long as the integrity of the OS is uncorrupted.

    Anyways...

    It is not the culture which gives us our distinctive soul, it is our mind. Culture just being our minds manifest in the material world. Our culture is a symptom of our minds, an extension. The racial mind is ultimately what we want to preserve. Our culture just a by-product. Your mind is more important than the invention you made, culture is our wonderful invention.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    In short, your computer analogy only minds me to place more importance on culture - as long as the race is still a constant contributor, it is the culture which refines this. Without culture, we would all be just "White", there'd be nothing to set the Germanic apart from the Slav, the Balt, the Celt, the Romanic, the Hellene, you name it...
    That is true, without our particular culture we would just be "white", which is not such a bad thing in itself. Still preferable to being non-white with Germanic culture. Thus giving credence to the priority of Race.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    Should we have to make a choice between the two, though? Of course, you cannot have milk without a cow --- but what use is a cow which does no longer give milk?
    We should not have to make a choice, my words were for illustrative purposes only. To assist in understanding how one is more important. I wouldn't confuse that with a proposition to chose one or the other.

    A cow which does not produce milk is a false analogy for my position. Again, that would be equivalent to a Race that does not produce culture, which is symptomatic of a degenerated Race. The antithesis of my position.

    A true analogy would be; shall we preserve the milk which the cow already produced or the cow itself? The cow, because it can produce more milk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    You're left with the source, but when the source cannot render a product, it is just like an empty box, or like a computer without software - useless.
    The ephemeral non-existence of the product is not equivalent to a source that cannot render a product. You're confusing the ability with the product itself. As if, when the product is non-existent than the ability is as well. That is not the case in my position. Again, it is the antithesis of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    If you take our culture away, our race is essentially like comatose patients on life-support: Alive, but essentially unable to contribute anything productive, because essentially, we would not function.
    Culture does not produce our potential, our potential produces the culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    We are however not separated from our traditional culture, and not on a lonely island. The flame of our traditional culture is still flickering - we must seek to rekindle that flame instead of just resigning ourselves to the fact: "Ah well, it's flickering anyway --- let's just have it go out, we can always light a different candle; light is light".

    That is defeatism. Essentially it is like saying - "Who cares if we're all Islamic - we'll still be of the same race.
    Absolutely, my example was for illustrative purposes only [pulls hair out]. Obviously I am not proposing we jettison our culture and never have. It is the most important thing in the world next to preserving our minds/race.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    Have you ever noticed that they're first trying to destroy our culture before they try to destroy our race, knowing that it's even easier to destroy an empty box than one which still has contents enshrined therein?
    Yes, that is because culture is our blueprint for adaptation and contains our collective immune system. A blueprint for survival that is non-compatible with theirs. It makes sense to destroy an organisms immune system to destroy the host. But that in no way suggests that the creation is of equal value to the Creator. Although, it is very important. It in no way suggests that the immune system is of equal value to the organism itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    that, first, Germanic would have to be a racial integer. Even when you take it down to the sub-racial, this is however not the case. Germanic is largely a cultural distinction, which sets us apart from others of "Europid" or even "Nordish" race (there are no racial or sub-racial phenotypes exclusive to Germanics).
    Then you contradict yourself when you first replied to this thread. Your words being the following: "Anything that sprang from the mind of a fellow Germanic and was applied on a large scale can by definition not be un-Germanic".

    But anyways, what I said does not make it an imperative that Germanic be a racial integer. You're right, Germanic is a culture. It is called Germanic because the people who created it were called Germans. Whatever they created in the past and create thereafter, that is exclusive to themselves, would also be called Germanic and rightly so. Therefore my comment would be true. If by definition, only the things created in the past could be called Germanic, then we again end up with a paradox because before it was created it would be something that will exist in the future, therefore negating its classification as Germanic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    It is culture, not race, which sets us apart from other Indo-Europeans, as such with culture gone, we would simply no longer be Germanic. In fact, with culture gone we'd make ourselves susceptible to adopting our neighbouring cultures --- and if we adopted Slavic culture with all Germanic culture eradicated: would we still be as Germanic as we are?
    Yes, for all practical concerns for the purposes of this conversation, it is culture that sets us apart from other Indo-Europeans.

    I guess if we adopted their culture and decided not to call ourselves Germanic than we wouldn't be. I suppose we wouldn't go by that name anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    With all memory gone, it can never be recreated in the same way. Different decisions at different points would lead to a different culture.
    That's right, it would be created differently.

    Sigurd, I believe you are playing semantic and logical tricks on yourself. Perhaps you are thinking something along the lines of this: If the Creator is special because of the creation, then it follows that the creation is what is special. I think that something along that line of thinking is ultimately what is giving you trouble. This is a fallacy. The premise contains an assumption that supports the conclusion. The Creator is special not because of what he created, but because he can create. Although, the creation may have much value in itself, but that is not being disputed.
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  8. #108
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    You couldn't be more wrong Sigurd.
    1. Culture is an emanation of race, it is a result of the creative force of race. Culture did not create race. Language and clothing didn't exist before people, but viceversa. First there were people, and they created language and clothing, out of necessity.
    2. Culture is fluid, it always undergoes changes. Folk costumes are slowly becoming museum stuff. The Proto-Germanic spoken ages ago isn't spoken anymore. Yet you want to stop the natural course of things and 'preserve' the culture of the 2000s or 1900s? Realistically, it's never going to happen. Preservation of culture is for historians and museums. For the people, culture is fluid, everchanging, and should we ever lose it completely, our race is intelligent enough to create it anew. We created it once, out of necessity, and we will each time we will have the need to communicate, dress ourselves, protect ourselves against the cold and heat, and so on. A computer without software is not useless, because software was created by use of a computer. Someone ingenious enough created software once that and could do it again. But if you have software alone, you will never be able to create a computer out of it. That's why race will always be of more value than culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by infratetraskelion View Post
    That would be a good analogy if we imagine the box generating the chocolate, which is the fundamental relationship between race and culture. Filling the box with potato wedges would be equivalent to a race that produces bad culture.
    What if the box no longer generates the chocolate? Could not someone else come and fill this box with the excess potato wedges that their box creates?

    This is essentially what we are seeing. I do not deny that race generates culture, but a race whose culture is dwindling away as we speak is susceptible towards another race just taking that box struggling to generate chocolates and filling it with the overflow of their potato wedges.

    Our aim cannot be to presume that the box would generate whatever is currently in it, our aim must be to preserve this box to generate chocolates instead of waiting for someone to fill it with potato wedges and then seeking to have the box generate anything, be it a mixture of chocolates and potato wedges, or just potato wedges.

    We must preserve the chocolate character of culture being generated to even preclude the possibility of potato wedges or even potato wedge generation within our box.

    That is symptomatic of a degenerated race. So here the focus is still on Race. Preserving Race so we do not end up with potato wedges.
    Merely preserving the box does not do that. Preserving its ability to generate chocolates should be our aim. Preserving the function, not the machine. The link between race and culture, so to speak.

    Lets strengthen the analogy. If we say a computer is composed of 3 parts; The hardware, the operating system and the software. Hardware would be the body of the Race, Operating System the mind and Software the Culture. That is actually the model I had in mind. It is the Operating System that we ultimately want to preserve
    I see where you are coming from, but have to qualify this: This is why, devoid of our folk memories on a desolate island, we could not produce Germanic culture. We would essentially have a different Operating System, or would even need to create one, to be that link between race and culture.

    But let's see: Why format the hard-drive and re-install the OS immediately? Should we not seek to mend faulty software first, before we even consider taking such a drastic step?

    It is not the culture which gives us our distinctive soul, it is our mind. Culture just being our minds manifest in the material world. Our culture is a symptom of our minds, an extension.
    Its value however is measured by the operability and the compatibility between the generated culture and the operating system. If we allow alien notions to infest in our operating system, chances are that they won't run smoothly.

    Preserving the software we have to run with our operating system and our computer allows for another comparison: Does Windows software always work with MacOS? Does it even always work on later version or earlier versions of the Windows?

    If I wish to utilise an old programme which only worked to Windows 98 - if 98 is no longer applicable, I must find a way to make this programme compatible with newer editions if it is dear to me.

    As such, to preserve regional traditions and folk customes that may seem out of time, but are essentially something close to our hearts, as it transports our history and memory as a folk into our time, we should seek to find a mechanism to make them compatible with a progressing, updated operating system.

    I agree that they will become anachronisms if we don't seek to establish this compatibility in a progressive way in which it will run smoothly, however discarding this altogether cannot be a favourable option. A mixture between nostalgia/old values and progress/new values should essentially IMO be achieved, we should not unroot ourselves.

    That is true, without our particular culture we would just be "white", which is not such a bad thing in itself. Still preferable to being non-white with Germanic culture. Thus giving credence to the priority of Race.
    Not quite as bad, but perhaps almost as bad. A virus in the software can become an issue with the operating system, and eventually an issue with the hardware. Focussing on preserving the computer, without taking care of the operating system, or its software will not maintain the same character.

    As such, we must place equal importance on the manifestations of our mind (culture) as to the mind itself or the origin of either (race).

    As if, when the product is non-existent than the ability is as well. That is not the case in my position. Again, it is the antithesis of it.
    If the product is withdrawn, its source or the process of its generation is kind of useless. It would be like filling a barrel with wine if it has a hole at the bottom. The prostitute would be rich if it wasn't for the pimp withdrawing the money.

    We must thus ensure to find ways in which to safeguard not only the source and the process of generation, but also its output. Otherwise, we are draining the potential of the source and the generation process, for a matter futile.

    Culture does not produce our potential, our potential produces the culture.
    But should we let the manifestations of this potential go to waste?

    It makes sense to destroy an organisms immune system to destroy the host. But that in no way suggests that the creation is of equal value to the Creator. Although, it is very important. It in no way suggests that the immune system is of equal value to the organism itself.
    Assume that the immune system is befallen with an ailment for which there is no cure, such as HIV/AIDS, and which will eat up the immune system. Essentially, once it's corrupted and destroyed the immune system, it will destroy the organism itself, and it is doomed.

    Our approach should thus be to preclude our immune system from being befallen in the first place, or to attempt to mend the immune system if possible, to ensure that it cannot in further consequence eat away the organism itself.

    Preserving race before preserving culture, even if the latter is a result of the former, will lead to the granite to be preserved, rather than the building. Even if we allow the building to be destroyed but manage to safeguard the knowledge as to its construction, we are left with having to reconstruct it. That is usually a greater effort than just safeguarding the building itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Todesengel View Post
    For the people, culture is fluid, everchanging, and should we ever lose it completely, our race is intelligent enough to create it anew. We created it once, out of necessity, and we will each time we will have the need to communicate, dress ourselves, protect ourselves against the cold and heat, and so on.
    I agree that there must be a sense of progress, but I disbelieve that this should come at the cost of discarding that which is already there. Every organic progress comes from roots, as such we must preserve the roots as well. This is actually also why we should preserve BOTH race and culture.

    Our motto should be along the lines of "Hearts in the past, Minds on the present, Eyes on the future". Discarding any of the three --- the roots and character of the past, the importance of applicability in the present, or the perspective for the future --- will essentially be to our detriment. Leaving our roots behind altogether unroots us as a people, denying progress is to anachronise ourselves. It must be a middle way that accomodates characteristics of both.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    I agree that there must be a sense of progress, but I disbelieve that this should come at the cost of discarding that which is already there. Every organic progress comes from roots, as such we must preserve the roots as well. This is actually also why we should preserve BOTH race and culture.

    Our motto should be along the lines of "Hearts in the past, Minds on the present, Eyes on the future". Discarding any of the three --- the roots and character of the past, the importance of applicability in the present, or the perspective for the future --- will essentially be to our detriment. Leaving our roots behind altogether unroots us as a people, denying progress is to anachronise ourselves. It must be a middle way that accomodates characteristics of both.
    We don't know what the future holds and for all we know, we might have to make a choice, because time is running out. Yes ideally both race and culture should be there, but if that can't be, then race alone is preferable to nil. One more time, the roots of culture are in race, nowhere else.

    And there is no such thing as cultural preservation. Culture is not like race. It flows, like a river. Race should ideally remain unchanged, but we can't do that with culture because then it would be against the laws of natural progress, like wearing ancient of medieval clothes in the 21st century.

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