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Thread: Italians may make 'small doses' of torture legal

  1. #21
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    Post Re: AW: Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by gorgeousgal2k2
    That's very wrong.

    It's NEVER right to torture someone, even if they were the most evil person in the world.
    Torture cannot be justified as a punishment for crimes. It, however, can be justified to prevent future crimes and suffering.

    Imagine the following scenario: A gang of criminals deposits a nuclear device in the underground of a big metropolis that shall, in accordance with their announcement and all intelligence information collected, detonate in a few hours time and will cost millions of lives and immense suffering to millions of children and women that will survive, severely injured or affected by radio-activity. It is too late to evacuate the town fully and to search the whole town for the device.

    One of the criminals who in accordance with all intelligence information or by his own admission allegedly knows of the location of the device gets caught. Would it be justified to torture him in order to extract this information, so that all these deaths and suffering can be prevented? I think it would be. Even if there is only a certain probability, more likely than not, that he is aware of this information and that it can be extracted.

    Needless to say, as this is an extraordinary measure, it will need extraordinary evidence.

    As it is an extraordinary measure, it can only apply to concrete crimes in their development and not to vague possible potential future crimes, and, even less so, past crimes.

    As it is an extraordinary measure, it can only affect those credibly considered to be involved in crimes and not innocent bystanders who are believed to be in possession of information.

    As it is an extraordinary measure, the value of the information extracted must exceed the damage caused by the crime extraordinarily. It cannot apply to anything but murder or genocide.

    In no way can such a judgment be left to the executive forces. It should need a qualified decision of the Constitutional Court, or, in case of emergency, the unanimous decision of a panel of senior judges.

    The Italian proposal consequently has to be rejected by all means.
    .

  2. #22
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    Post Re: Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Oskorei
    Never underestimate the idiocy of those in positions of power. Our ideas are semi-illegal in many countries, and no one knows what the future may hold in store. Do you think that those in power are too honest to frame political enemies for crimes they didnt commit?

    Besides, torture is dishonourable and un-Aryan. I might hesitantly accept it in some cases of personal revenge, but the State should not degrade itself to this.
    Well Klaus Barbie seemed to like to promote torture against suspected traitors of the Reich..(spikes in the bladder & so on).

    I agree on torture of murderers of equal sadistic tendencies.

  3. #23
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    Post Re: AW: Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by gorgeousgal2k2
    That's very wrong.

    It's NEVER right to torture someone, even if they were the most evil person in the world.
    Even Palestinians? Torture is very common in Israel. In fact, we hired Israelis to torture prisoners in our present war (speaking of 'we' Americans.) I know, because when I was serving I thought that Turkish soldiers were cruel. Then we met our Israeli allies - now, they made the Turks seem Christian saints and holy men.

    But, you *are* correct - it is never right to torture. My experience with the issue led in great part to my disenchantment with my own government.
    --------------------------------------------------------
    There is nothing the matter with Americans except their ideals. The real American is all right; it is the ideal American who is all wrong. ~G.K. Chesterton

  4. #24
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    Post Re: AW: Torture

    Well If the Israelis are torturing palestinians, then that's not good. I dont agree with its use on anyone. Ever.

  5. #25
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    Post Re: AW: Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Tryggvi
    Torture cannot be justified as a punishment for crimes. It, however, can be justified to prevent future crimes and suffering.


    .
    Torture is quite simply dishonorable - it is cowardly bullying of a vile kind. It is in my view totally un-Aryan and uncivilized and therefore totally unacceptable. Those who conduct torture are simply cowards.

    Would you like to be forcefully restrained by a group of bullies and tortured?

    Who or what gives such bullies the power, the authority, to do what they do?

    What is a "crime" anyways? Who decides? And why?

    What is the basis of "law" - for us as Aryans?

    I'm with Myatt in that law means honor. What is good is what is honorable; what is bad is what is dishonorable.

    Further, real freedom also means honor - it means no persons inflicting themselves upon you and taking away your ability to defend yourself and your honor.

    The modern world has gone crazy and is the world of the bully.

    I say again - nothing justifies torture, no amount of "information" that could be obtained. If you torture, you have lost the moral high ground and shown yourself as a bully or as someone who approves of cowardly bullying.

    Honor is more important than such "information" - if this is not understood, then honor itself is not understood.

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    Post Re: Torture

    I find nothing wrong with torture as long as it is justified.

    It is better for one man to be tortured if it will prevent suffering among the multitude.

    That is to say if torture could prevent a terrorist attack I feel it would be justified.

  7. #27
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    Post Re: AW: Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Hedwig
    I do not support the idea of torture except in extreme cases but I disagree with the fact that the 'bully' that tortures is a coward. It takes quite some courrage to rip someone's guts (both figurately and literally), to watch how he is in pain, how he growns etc. and then to know you are responsible for his mutilation/death. Of course, in a lot of cases the bully is a derranged person who enjoys sadism and blood shed.

    Totally utterly disagree here. The question of "sadism" is irrelevant.

    First, the person torured has to be restrained - you take away their honor by doing so. This forceful restraint is bullying. End of story.

    Now - how you ever been restrained against your will? Do you know what that feels like?

    To restrain someone like that and then do dishonorable things to them is cowardly - they cannot fight you; you have "power" over them. You have taken their honor away - that is cowardly.

    Anyone of any honor would never do such a cowardly thing.

    I state again - WHO decides what is "right" and that someone should be restrained against their will and tortured? What gives someone this "right"?

    No one has answered, so I repeat - what is fair, just, good, is what is honorable. That is the basis for true justice - i.e. it is individual freedom, defined by and kept by personal honor, which defines what is right.


    Now, until we Aryans start thinking like this, and living like this - with honor - we have no right whatsoever to crow about being civilized, let alone about being "superior" which is a dishonorable concept anyway.

  8. #28
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    Post Re: AW: Re: AW: Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Hedwig
    but if the victim is a strong man, what makes you sure he is not going to break free and confront you
    Now we are getting close to the essence of the matter IMNSHO.

    If such a thing happens, we square up for a fair fight, man to man, one on one, as any really honorable warrior would wish.

    This assumes we have the spirit, the training, of a real warrior - if we don't, why then it's our fault for not having these things! One of the principles of honor is being ready to defend one's self, and having the physical abilities acquired through training to do this.

    Now, any restraint involving more than one person is IMNSHO dishonorable. It is cowardly. It is against the ethos of the true warrior. That for me is the end of the matter. If you or others don't understand this, you don't.

    Yes, I also have been restrained by force by cowards who call themselves officers of the "law" - such restraint takes away your dignity, your honor.


    I repeat yet again - what is right is what is honorable. Any law which does not allow for personal honor is wrong, immoral, and tyrannical because it takes away our honor.

    Any servant or socalled "officer" of the "law" who tries to enforce a dishonorable law is acting in a dishonorable way and is therefore an agent of tyranny.

    What is important is honor - this cannot be stressed enough. It's more important than any inforamtion obtained.

    What is also important is our folk - and as Myatt says it is this combination of personal honor and respect for our folk which is genuine National Socialism.

    Honor without an understanding of the folk is not NS, just as an udnerstanding of the folk without honor is not NS. if anything compromises our honor, or that of others, it is not National Socialist. This is indeed revolutionary. Shame so few seem to understand it.

    As I said in an earlier reply we must move-on from the politics, the ways, the ideas, of the past - and we can do this by making both honor and the folk the basis of our lives.

  9. #29
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    Post Re: AW: Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Hedwig
    , but in a situation of war for example one has to do dishonorable things too.
    I disagree as strongly as it is possible to disagree.

    We should be making a stand and saying - such dishonor, whatever the excuse give, is simply wrong. To act dishonorably is to dishonor yourself.

    That is why modern warfare by its very nature is mostly dishonorable. We must accept we have taken a wrong turn, and that our modern weapons make us dishonorabe in war.

    My point is - someone of honor would refuse to compromise their honor and would rather die than do a dishonorable deed.

    What is most important - for a true warrior - is to live and die in an honorable way.

    There is no excuse for doing anything dishonorable. But people always make excuses for being dishonorable and always try and justify doing something which is against their principles if that doing is easy, the easy way.

    So - if this means you die, or "lose", then you do. What matters is HONOR. is this understood?

    To so live and die in an honorable way is the mark of a real warrior. This is hard, but all it takes is an act of will.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hedwig
    If someone caught a relative of yours, let's say a wife or child and a dinamite was to blow up in a few hours, with you having no idea of the location of where he/she was, but that someone was suddenly caught by the police, would you agree for them not to torture him for the information or let your relative die?
    I generally do not like answering what are often rigged hypothetical questions, but I make exception here, and say I would do what was honorable, which is for them to treat him in an honorable way, even if it meant someone I loved died. Were I to condone such dishonorable actions by others I myself would be acting dishonorably.

    As I said, we can always make excuses for failing to be honorable. In your hypothetical scenario, I would make the hard decision to live by the principles I uphold. Anything else would be hypocritical.

  10. #30
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    Post Re: AW: Torture

    I agree with all that Rhadley has said on this thread. Honor is very important.

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