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Thread: American Ethnic Backgrounds

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    Senior Member Vestmannr's Avatar
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    Post American Ethnic Backgrounds

    Well, you have to understand: Italy did not immigrate to the US entire. Italians in America are of very specific regional origins. It is not so much a personal view of Italian-Americans, or of Italians.. but of recognizing how Italian immigrants and Italian-Americans are treated and viewed by themselves, by other American groups. If there is an issue, it is probably that most Italian-Americans would not be considered mainstream Italians. I'd dare to say it works with about every immigrant group in America: we are in ways the heirs of minorities in the Old Country. Understanding us Anglo-Americans works the same way. Dont expect us to think like Londoners. The greatest influx of us came from the Borders as they were being pacified. How much does a modern Londoner have in common with border-folk from the days of King James I, or even from the late 18th c. ? Other whole sections of our Anglo-population came from specific places that have changed over time (New England is almost entirely rural East Anglian roots, Tidewater South mostly Wessex roots, etc.) German immigration to the US is similar: far less Saxon, far more Bavarian, Palatine... and in the northern states, Prussian. There have been various studies done on American sociology and minorities, even treating Italian-Americans (amongst others). Of those who have 'gone mainstream', ie Germans, most Irish, French ... there is no such studies. Studies only exist for those who have not assimilated. (Note, one Anglo group is considered as a minority and is treated as such in sociological studies; Appalachian mountaineers... mostly for their extremely antiquated conservatism.) I have lived in several states, and have spent time in Italian-American communities. I even have an Italian American friend with whom I spend plenty of time. He even admits to not being treated as a 'mainstream' American south or west of Philadelphia... unless it is in an Urban area like Chicago, Detroit, or LA.

    Sorry, missed your main question. How Germans are viewed in the US? As above, most of them by far have assimilated into Anglo society and have little to distinguish them beyond food customs from other Americans. In fact, most of us Anglos have absorbed parts of German heritage related to butchering and the meat industry (the Hamburger and Frankfurter are of German origin, as is 'Chicken Fried Steak', ie schnitzel.) For the way that Germans who have not assimilated are viewed in American popular eyes, I can come up with a number of issues highly influenced by the World Wars, besides Immigration, and more recent interactions:

    1 Highly intelligent, inventive.
    2 Severe and cruel.
    3 Poor artisans, great musicians.
    4 Lack of humor.
    5 Sexually perverted/kinky.
    6 Highly disciplined, lacking in spontaneity.
    7 Quaint, stuck in the past.

    I dont think that Germans themselves are like that stereotype, but it is generally how unassimilated German-Americans are viewed. In any case, an American Oktoberfest is more likely to be attended by mainstream Americans than an Italian festival (whatever they would call that.) Even in my largely Anglo-Celtic area, Oktoberfest is a much larger community event even for non-Germans than is our own Highland Games or St. Patrick's day parade and festival (even beats out the Renaissance and Medieval festivals.) I think we Americans have a love-hate relationship with Germany that would be difficult to explain to a non-American, or an unassimilated Ghetto American.
    Last edited by Vestmannr; Friday, April 23rd, 2004 at 10:50 PM. Reason: missed part of the question

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    Account Inactive nemo's Avatar
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    Post Re: Medicism/Mediterranocentrism and its leaders

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontiersman
    Nemo wrote: "Don't believe everything you read on a web forum. that person is just a provocotor, probably some jew, Italians and Germans always got along very well here in NYC."

    We should apply the same rule to these words. Italians and Germans may get along well in NYC, but NYC is considered across the rest of the United States as the 'Mixing Pot' : the rest of us dont want to be like NYC. Italians did come to my state: they were disliked by the White population, so built their own community apart from the Whites, Blacks, Indians, etc. In NYC, Italians may have a celebrity status due to large numbers, and large representation in Media (thus, the endless Italian mafia movies the rest of us are subjected to, far out of proportion with their actual numbers in our society.) Out in 'real America', Italians are still considered foreign and suspect. Deal with it.

    Secondly, and more importantly to my Celtic brothers: *There is no such thing as a Celtic Med!!!!* Celts are primarily UP, Atlantid, with some Nordic. Atlantids are not Meds. It is not our tradition, it is not our genetics, it is not our phenotypes.

    It is not important if you don't like us Italians, in this country it makes no difference if you are German, Irish etc, their are always people who don't like you, just remember for any group you don't like for what their nationality is, their are people who don't like you for what you are.

    You are entitled to like who ever you want and associate with who ever you want, that is your privilege, but ever since you came on this thread you started showing your bias toward Italians, by putting up some data which you completly misunderstood, and other data put up showed how wrong you are.

    I am very suspicious of people who in this time and age, when the world has changed so much with with jew take over of our Govt. and 3rd world immigration that you are trying to show how much Italians are not liked and have not assimulated into mainstream.

    I think you exaggerate the things you say about Italians, because of your own pesonal bias toward them.

    I think all your opinions are just lies or your just ignorant or some jew provocotor.

    In closing I will say to you as an Italian/American?I and other Italian/Americans don't give two shits what anglos like you like us or not, and that goes for the jews too.

    You celts are only so important to yourselves, but a lot of people I know don't think much of your breed.
    Last edited by nemo; Saturday, April 24th, 2004 at 03:13 AM.

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    Account Inactive nemo's Avatar
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    Post Re: Medicism/Mediterranocentrism and its leaders

    BTW! Italians have assimulated into the mainstream, I think it is time from you to come down from the hills, your biasis distort your logic, and you come off as being a very ignorant person and very backward.

    This is 2004! not 1904, I don't know? but I guess everything they say about you hillbillys is true. LOL

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    Account Inactive dazed&confused's Avatar
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    Post Re: Medicism/Mediterranocentrism and its leaders

    OT: You guys who live in America what do you think about James Gandolfini of the Soprano's?
    He portraits the role of a stereotypical southern italian mobster/mafiaman, but he's actually of northern italian descent.
    It may sound irrilevant for an american viewer, but for me, as italian, is strange just like Sean Connery, who was a scotsman who played the part of a typical english in 007.

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    Senior Member Vestmannr's Avatar
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    Post Re: Medicism/Mediterranocentrism and its leaders

    "It is not important if you don't like us Italians, in this country it makes no difference if you are German, Irish etc, their are always people who don't like you, just remember for any group you don't like for what their nationality is, their are people who don't like you for what you are."

    Yes, but my people founded this country, thanks We can decide who we assimilate and dont. And remember, it was the Italians who hated us first. It isnt a case of me not liking Italians : again, *I* am not the issue. I've had a few good Italian friends, mostly from Florence and Naples. One of my drinking buddies is Florentine. Dont be so touchy.

    "You are entitled to like who ever you want and associate with who ever you want, that is your privilege, but ever since you came on this thread you started showing your bias toward Italians, by putting up some data which you completly misunderstood, and other data put up showed how wrong you are."

    Funny you read it that way. I have no bias against Italians. I do have a developing dislike of self-identified Meds on the Internet with a victim mentality coupled with a Mediocentric view of the world.

    "I am very suspicious of people who in this time and age, when the world has changed so much with with jew take over of our Govt. and 3rd world immigration that you are trying to show how much Italians are not liked and have not assimulated into mainstream."

    Like I said, it is history: deal with it. Just remember: multiculturalism is a liberal idea with its root in Talmudic philosophy.

    "I think you exaggerate the things you say about Italians, because of your own pesonal bias toward them."

    Think what you want, but you are wrong.

    "I think all your opinions are just lies or your just ignorant or some jew provocotor."

    I think the same of yourself.

    "In closing I will say to you as an Italian/American?I and other Italian/Americans don't give two shits what anglos like you like us or not, and that goes for the jews too."

    Fine with me... just leave my country. You know where Italy is (I hope), if not I'll point it out on the map... even look up the gate where you can jump on a plane. America was founded Anglo, has stayed Anglo, and where liberal Jews dont reign supreme, is still an Anglo country. The reason you can still call yourself Italian/American is because of the Jewish concept of multiculturalism. Get with the program: this isnt the country of Grimaldi, this is the country of Washington and Jefferson.

    "You celts are only so important to yourselves, but a lot of people I know don't think much of your breed."

    Which means you dont think much about America. Again, you are welcome to leave this primarily Anglo-Celtic country. If you hate our people and institutions, you dont belong here. It is that simple. If you are here to fight for multiculturalism, and the liberal idea ... then you can consider yourself the ally of the Likudniks... and us Americans will fight you.

    "BTW! Italians have assimulated into the mainstream, I think it is time from you to come down from the hills, your biasis distort your logic, and you come off as being a very ignorant person and very backward."

    The fact that you describe them as primarily Italian or as Italian-Americans shows they have not, in fact, assimilated into the mainstream. Your 'redneck baiting' wont work with me either. For one, I speak the American language (American English) far better than yourself primarily because I am not ignorant, but educated. As for 'backward', I'm used to be called that by ADL, SPLC, and other Liberal Democrats... it is just another word for Conservative like 'Reactionary', 'White', etc. The issue is not myself, or my biases... which have far more to do with the view of America you are representing, and hostility to the real American poeple.

    "This is 2004! not 1904, I don't know? but I guess everything they say about you hillbillys is true. LOL"

    Typical Liberal Newspeak: 1904, 'Dark Ages', etc. I've heard it all. Usually when ADL folks say it, they say 'Dark Ages' or 1940's.. not 1904. However, I assure you I am entirely in 2004. Neither am I a 'hillbilly'. I suppose they didnt cover that at Ellis Island, hillbillies are mostly a construct of the Tourist industry in a specific region of the country. You might be surprised who my people are: some of them founded the states immediately to your East. However, I get what you are at: it is a typical tactic ... 'hillbilly' and '1904' are just synonyms for 'Anti-Semite', 'White Boy', and 'Straight'.

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    Senior Member Vestmannr's Avatar
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    Post Re: Medicism/Mediterranocentrism and its leaders

    dazed&confused:

    I dont think you have to worry. Americans know that the Sopranos are a caricature, and not necessarily a representation of real life, or even of Italians in America. I dont watch that show myself (I have little time for television, only saw it when Fairuza Balk was supposed to be on), however I could agree with you on the incongruity of having a north Italian portraying what is considered a stereotypical Sicilian in American eyes. Sean Connery was a bit of a stretch for 007, wasnt he? I think the best Bond was the Australian actor, what's his name? He only portrayed Bond once.

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    Post Re: Medicism/Mediterranocentrism and its leaders

    To Frontiersman:

    According with the last national US census, 23% of american citizens claim to have a prevalent german origin. So Usa are no longer an anglo-celtic country. Maybe the cultural roots are anglo-celtic but not the ethnic background.
    If you were really anglo-celtic you would prefer soccer instead of that rude vulgarization of rugby you call "Football".

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    Senior Member Med's Avatar
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    Post Re: Medicism/Mediterranocentrism and its leaders

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontiersman
    There have been various studies done on American sociology and minorities, even treating Italian-Americans (amongst others). Of those who have 'gone mainstream', ie Germans, most Irish, French ... there is no such studies.
    What you forget to mention is that Italians are also the most recent arrivals of those groups. Give them time. Besides, I still hear a lot of references to "Irish-Americans" as a distinct ethnic group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontiersman
    Out in 'real America', Italians are still considered foreign and suspect.
    Yeah, and when the Irish immigrated to America, they were also considered foreign and suspect for a long time. Your point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontiersman
    Get with the program: this isnt the country of Grimaldi, this is the country of Washington and Jefferson.
    Two Italians signed the Declaration of Independence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontiersman
    Secondly, and more importantly to my Celtic brothers: *There is no such thing as a Celtic Med!!!!* ... It is not our tradition, it is not our genetics, it is not our phenotypes.
    Celtic Britons are genetically related to Iberians:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/1256894.stm

    Coon notes a strong Mediterranean element in the British Isles:

    http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-X3.htm

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    Account Inactive nemo's Avatar
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    Post Re: Medicism/Mediterranocentrism and its leaders

    [QUOTE=Frontiersman]

    Yes, but my people founded this country, thanks We can decide who we assimilate and dont. And remember, it was the Italians who hated us first. It isnt a case of me not liking Italians :

    AN italian discovered this country, if it were not for him your people would not have known it existed, Columbus charted the maps and showed you the way.
    You can assimilate with who ever you want, and I never knew Italians hated you first, this is new to me.




    [quote]
    Like I said, it is history: deal with it. Just remember: multiculturalism is a liberal idea with its root in Talmudic philosophy.

    I am not a liberal, and I hate jews.





    [quote]
    Fine with me... just leave my country

    This is my country! I and my parents were born here, many of my family died in ww11, korean etc, in ww11 Italian/Americans were 10% of the total amount of military men 300,000 this well documented so don't tell me to leave your country I and all Italian/Americans are just as much American then any Anglo


    [quote]
    Which means you dont think much about America. Again, you are welcome to leave this primarily Anglo-Celtic country. If you hate our people and institutions, you dont belong here. It is that simple. If you are here to fight for multiculturalism, and the liberal idea ... then you can consider yourself the ally of the Likudniks... and us Americans will fight you.

    Stop misrepresenting me, I am not a liberal or am I for multiculturism, who do you mean by our people, I am an American and support the American way of life and the American people.


    The fact that you describe them as primarily Italian or as Italian-Americans shows they have not, in fact, assimilated into the mainstream. .
    .
    That's bullshit! how about Germans who call themselves German/American and Irish/American, and polish/American etc, well I guess they did not assimulate either, Your rule would have to apply to them also, you don't bend the rules to accommodate the select few.

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    Senior Member Vestmannr's Avatar
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    Post Re: Medicism/Mediterranocentrism and its leaders

    dazed:
    " Maybe the cultural roots are anglo-celtic but not the ethnic background.
    If you were really anglo-celtic you would prefer soccer instead of that rude vulgarization of rugby you call "Football". "

    I have German origin as well. Most who claim German in America have assimilated quite well into America, and only Jewish-Americans hold anything against them. Many who claim German origin have anglicized names ... so, yes it is still an Anglo country. We speak English, not German... we cannot change our history. Those who are of the 'native' Anglo-Celtic groups are broken down into fragments on the US Census 'by ancestry' figures: you would have to count those considering themselves American, Scotch-Irish, British, Scottish, Welsh, most of the Irish, Dutch, and the French (the Acadians/Cajuns are counted separately, and alone of the French have kept a separate identity.) Not even to mention other groups. As for Soccer, it is my primary athletic sport after track & field, as well as rugby.

    Medhammer:
    "What you forget to mention is that Italians are also the most recent arrivals of those groups. Give them time.."

    The Italians are not necessarily the most recent arrivals. Many of the groups I mentioned arrived at the same time as the Italians. Italian immigration pretty much mirrors that from Germany, Poland, and the Czechs throughout the 19th and 20th c. The references to Irish-Americans as a distinct ethnic group is due to a highly visible minority amongst Americans of Irish origin, whom the rest call 'lace-curtain Irish' - typically urban dwellers of the North East and Midwest. In other sections of the country, Irish descent is common and forms part of American identity. Whether Italian-Americans can/will/even want to assimilate to American (Anglo) identity remains to be seen. They were poorly treated previously (hence the gangs of the early 20th c., and the lynchings across the south.)

    "Yeah, and when the Irish immigrated to America, they were also considered foreign and suspect for a long time. Your point?"

    Only in certain sections. Large portions of America never had the anti-Irish sentiment that many remember: which again, was largely part of the urban Northeastern culture. "No Irish Need Apply" has been thoroughly debunked http://tigger.uic.edu/~rjensen/no-irish.htm . The South, for instance, had large numbers of 'Lost Irish' (who lost their Catholic identity), and strongly Catholic Irish who initially settled the Louisiana territory. Portions of the Irish immigration chose to remain separate, and took a longer time to assimilate: that is all.

    "Two Italians signed the Declaration of Independence."

    Please point them out:

    John Hancock
    Samuel Adams
    John Adams
    Robert Treat Paine
    Elbridge Gerry
    Josiah Bartlett
    William Whipple
    Matthew Thornton
    Stephen Hopkins
    William Ellery
    Roger Sherman
    Samuel Huntington
    William Williams
    Oliver Wolcott
    William Floyd
    Philip Livingston
    Francis Lewis
    Lewis Morris
    Richard Stockton
    John Witherspoon
    Francis Hopkinson
    John Hart
    Abraham Clark
    Robert Morris
    Benjamin Rush
    Benjamin Franklin
    John Morton
    George Clymer
    James Smith
    George Taylor
    James Wilson
    George Ross
    Caesar Rodney
    George Read
    Thomas M' Kean
    Samuel Chase
    William Paca
    Thomas Stone
    Charles Carrol
    George Wythe
    Richard Henry Lee
    Thomas Jefferson
    Benjamin Harrison
    Thomas Nelson, Jr.
    Francis Lightfoot Lee
    Carter Braxton
    William Hooper
    Joseph Hewes
    John Penn
    Edward Rutledge
    Thomas Heyward
    Thomas Lynch
    Arthur Middleton
    Button Gwinnett
    Lyman Hall
    George Walton

    "Celtic Britons are genetically related to Iberians:
    Coon notes a strong Mediterranean element in the British Isles:"

    Coon had a knack for mislabeling: he is not infallible. What he considered a Mediterranean element, is simply Atlantid : quite different than Mediterannean. The Iberian stock of the British Isles (of which I am one) is Atlantid, not Medish. Our origins are in the Atlantic rim: Spain, Portugal, France, the Low Countries, Denmark, the Rhineland, the Alps, Britain, and Ireland. What Coon misindentifies as Mediterranean in Britain, is actually a gracilized UP. The Fathers of the Medish folk are a mixed group of various Near Eastern origins. Sorry, but we wont let anyone steal the credit for our ancestors: Stonehenge is an Atlantid work, not a 'Medish' one.

    ah, Nemo:
    "AN italian discovered this country, if it were not for him your people would not have known it existed, Columbus charted the maps and showed you the way.
    You can assimilate with who ever you want, and I never knew Italians hated you first, this is new to me."

    Columbus discovered some Islands, using maps from the Zeno brothers (Polish) using information that was common knowledge amongst Scandinavian, Basque, and Irish/British sailors. They just had no reason to bring it up with their crowns until Spain started the gold race. After all, America was named after the port-master of Bristol harbor, before Amerigo Vespucci wrote his map and stole the credit Christopher Columbus, however, was not Italian but Greek ... his family being refugees from Constantinople. As for the Italians, hate and segregation: hubris might be what makes Old Americans wary of the group, I know it is a Greek term ... but hopefully you might understand what I mean.

    "I am not a liberal, and I hate jews."

    That proves nothing. If you hold to the multicultural ideal, that is a liberal idea. 'If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck', eh? Also, there are plenty of self-hating jews...

    "This is my country! I and my parents were born here ... so don't tell me to leave your country I and all Italian/Americans are just as much American then any Anglo"

    Well, not just as much. You are only as American in as much as you assimilate and conform to the society we established. Our institutions could only have been founded from Anglo society. Without Magna Carta, the Declaration of Arbroath, English Common Law ... we have no American law system. American popular identity is largely indebted to the King James bible, Book of Common Prayer, the novels of Sir Walter Scott, and Shakespeare. Being 10% of the soldiers proves something ... just because one is a mercenary doesnt mean he owns where he fights or dies. The bottom line is: if you maintain hostile identities and customs in your host country, then it is a problem of your own creation. America is not Italian : we dont speak Italian, have Italian institutions, or an Italian identity.

    "Stop misrepresenting me, I am not a liberal or am I for multiculturism, who do you mean by our people, I am an American and support the American way of life and the American people."

    It is not a misrepresentation, though you might want to think through what seems an obvious conflict of interest. America is Anglo in origins, tradition, and culture: if you hate Nords, you hate Anglos (as well as the groups they assimilated: German, Scandinavian, Irish, Dutch, French, etc.) To be truly American means support of that identity. Mediocentrism is anti-American in the same way Afrocentrism or Zionism is. If I misrepresented you, then I encourage you to explain how you justify your position. Are you in fact against multiculturalism, and then for traditional American (Anglo) society ... thus being pro-Nordic? Or do you consider yourself an Italian colonist, trying to build a forward base of assault against Anglo/American society?

    "That's bullshit! how about Germans who call themselves German/American and Irish/American, and polish/American etc, well I guess they did not assimulate either, Your rule would have to apply to them also, you don't bend the rules to accommodate the select few."

    It isnt bending the rules. It is recognizing that there is a difference in quality. Most who call themselves German-American or Irish-American speak no German or Irish in the home or public. They have no hostility against American society, and gladly joined in it ... thus becoming Anglos. Polish-Americans are another iffy area: I know some who did assimilate. One surprised me, as his G-Grandfather took a Scottish name : one would not know his descendants are not Old Americans. Other Poles took a much longer time assimilating, and in a few areas they are still very much 'Old Country'. There are new immigrations and old holdouts of all the above cultures you mentioned, and more: given time the younger folk assimilate, the elders do not. For those younger folk who do not, I would consider them no different than Mexican illegals: hostile colonists, and enemies of the American people and institutions.

    There is a reason many of us Old Americans and descendants or previous immigrants who successfully assimilated, are becoming more and more anti-immigration. The warnings of our forefathers have turned out to be true: too much immigration from areas that do not have the mentality for live in a free Anglo society, can do damage to that society. Peoples who need a tyrant are hostile to America: and their unassimilated descendants are the enemy inside our borders. Having some Italian, or Irish, or Spanish, or German, or Dutch, or Swedish, or Russian descent isnt a problem for most Americans: what is a problem is hatred of those who compose the basis and majority of American (White) society, and hating the people (race and culture) who founded and built the same society.

    So I would ask: just what are your motives?

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