View Poll Results: Should females have the right to vote in political elections?

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Thread: Should Women Have the Right to Vote?

  1. #631
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selene View Post
    Saying they shouldn't become some women don't vote right-wing or conservative is not a good enough argument in my opinion, since that is politically discriminatory. The whole point of a system where people can vote is to choose between several options, some which are different or even opposed to each other.
    Right, that's how I see it too. Denying someone's right to vote because you disagree with the way they vote sounds like something the USSR would do. If you want them to vote conservative, then you have to cater to them, convince them why they should do so, given them incentives, etc. You can't remove someone's rights on the simple basis that you don't like their opinions, especially not in a democracy (which is usually the form of government that works with votes).

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  3. #632
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selene View Post
    Yes, I believe women should have the right to vote. Saying they shouldn't become some women don't vote right-wing or conservative is not a good enough argument in my opinion, since that is politically discriminatory. The whole point of a system where people can vote is to choose between several options, some which are different or even opposed to each other.
    It all comes down to one's priorities. If one's main priority is to uphold society as open, inclusive and democratic, then female suffrage is reasonable. If one's main priority is the survival of one's Nation, then female suffrage seems highly unreasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Selene View Post
    However I believe one big reason why women don't vote right-wing is because right-wing parties don't really make an effort to cater to them. Some right-wing figures are known to make anti-women statements, what is a pity because it has the potential to put off even those women who are socially conservative at heart.
    Female voting pattern in a nut-shell. They'd rather vote for policies which lead to more women being raped and their Nation being shred to bits, than vote for a politician who've made some off-color remarks. In my view, that's just another argument against women's suffrage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Idis View Post
    Right, that's how I see it too. Denying someone's right to vote because you disagree with the way they vote sounds like something the USSR would do.
    Women were generally denied positions of political power throughout Western history up until the early 20th century, long before the USSR came to be.

    Ironically, in the case of both Russia and China, universal voting was introduced just two years prior to their Marxist take-overs. Don't know if it can be said to have been an important contributing factor, but it's an interesting coincidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Idis View Post
    If you want them to vote conservative, then you have to cater to them, convince them why they should do so, given them incentives, etc.
    If not less rapes and less violence are good enough reason, there have been conservative initiatives to cater to motherhood and childrearing. Like in the case of Hungary, where women who give birth to three children are rewarded with significant tax-breaks and other socio-economical advantages. I've only seen Western women scoff and react with contempt toward such measures. They'd rather prefer the liberal-egalitarian way of catering to women, which includes quotation of women into high-paying and high-powered positions, more lenient abortion laws, more pampering for homos and transexuals, and more taxes diverted from men to women. None of which are in tune with conservative values.

    In the case of my own country, pretty much all the parties on the "conservative side" support the policy of giving stay-at-home parents a certain amount of money every month per child under the age of two. And all of the parties on the "socialist side" support dismantling said policy. Guess which most women vote for?
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  4. #633
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    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    It all comes down to one's priorities. If one's main priority is to uphold society as open, inclusive and democratic, then female suffrage is reasonable. If one's main priority is the survival of one's Nation, then female suffrage seems highly unreasonable.
    Then you may as well ban non-nationalist males from voting while you are at it, since allowing all males to vote could also endanger those results. In fact, you may as well just make adherence to nationalist politics as a requirement to be able to vote, but then voting would become senseless and just an image formality, so it may as well be removed altogether.

    IMO, blaming everything on women is just looking for a scapegoat. The current situation is not a result of women's suffrage but a result of effective anti-conservative propaganda. Women did not always sing the same tune just like men didn't either. Conservative politics used to be much more popular in the past than it is now, also with women.

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  6. #634
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Pride View Post
    Then you may as well ban non-nationalist males from voting while you are at it, since allowing all males to vote could also endanger those results. In fact, you may as well just make adherence to nationalist politics as a requirement to be able to vote, but then voting would become senseless and just an image formality, so it may as well be removed altogether.
    Yes.

    National survival is not something I consider negotiable.

    Do you think our ancestors would have just let an enemy force walk into their territory and take over, as long as 51% of the population agreed it was the right thing to do? I think it's more likely they would have gotten rid of the traitors, and faced the enemy on the battlefield. Survival demands difficult decisions and actions sometimes. And if I had to choose a hill to die on, it would definitely not be in the name of 'democracy'. To me, it seems absolutely preposterous to swear fealty to democracy above all else. It is just an idea. A concept of decision making. Your Nation and your family, on the other hand, is your own flesh and blood. People you share your history with, who have hopes and feelings, and deserve a future. Who in their right mind would choose the preservation of democracy over that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Pride View Post
    IMO, blaming everything on women is just looking for a scapegoat. The current situation is not a result of women's suffrage but a result of effective anti-conservative propaganda.
    I don't blame women for everything wrong with today. But can we agree that it deserves a part of the blame?

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Pride View Post
    Women did not always sing the same tune just like men didn't either. Conservative politics used to be much more popular in the past than it is now, also with women.
    Yes, back when our societies and cultures were largely still patriarchal, and the women's foremost role was that of a mother. Women's suffrage did away with that.
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  8. #635
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    Is this thread still alive?

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    Please don't close this thread anytime soon, I've been meaning to issue several in-depth responses but haven't had the time with the holidays.

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  11. #637
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Pride View Post
    Then you may as well ban non-nationalist males from voting while you are at it, since allowing all males to vote could also endanger those results. In fact, you may as well just make adherence to nationalist politics as a requirement to be able to vote, but then voting would become senseless and just an image formality, so it may as well be removed altogether.

    IMO, blaming everything on women is just looking for a scapegoat. The current situation is not a result of women's suffrage but a result of effective anti-conservative propaganda. Women did not always sing the same tune just like men didn't either. Conservative politics used to be much more popular in the past than it is now, also with women.
    Completely true, but it also seems to be true women have a natural inclination to favor inclusivist and collectivist visions of organising society, at least more than men, although women can be easily socialized not to go with that instinct. It really took the 20th century for women to go overboard with universalism and humanism too. Whatever may be the case: every government ever, and especially oppressive forms of government, is propped up by women. A government will collapse faster when women withdraw their consent than when men do. It makes the boys start a rebellion.
    “We think that we are born today tabula rasa without a history, but man has always lived in the myth. To think that man is born without a history within himself — that is a disease. It is absolutely abnormal, because man is not bom every day. He is born into a specific historical setting with specific historical qualities, and therefore, he is only complete when he has a relation to these things. If you are growing up with no connection from the past, it is like being born without eyes and ears and trying to perceive the external world with accuracy. Natural science may say, “You need no connection with the past; you can wipe it out”, but that is a mutilation of the human being.” – Carl Gustav Jung, 1957

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    Elections & votings? Oh, here I come...



    2021 Municipal election (if home address in Finland)
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    Plus numbers of other ''unofficial elections'' (free time organizations etc.).

  13. #639
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    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    Yes.

    National survival is not something I consider negotiable.

    Do you think our ancestors would have just let an enemy force walk into their territory and take over, as long as 51% of the population agreed it was the right thing to do? I think it's more likely they would have gotten rid of the traitors, and faced the enemy on the battlefield. Survival demands difficult decisions and actions sometimes. And if I had to choose a hill to die on, it would definitely not be in the name of 'democracy'. To me, it seems absolutely preposterous to swear fealty to democracy above all else. It is just an idea. A concept of decision making. Your Nation and your family, on the other hand, is your own flesh and blood. People you share your history with, who have hopes and feelings, and deserve a future. Who in their right mind would choose the preservation of democracy over that?

    I don't blame women for everything wrong with today. But can we agree that it deserves a part of the blame?

    Yes, back when our societies and cultures were largely still patriarchal, and the women's foremost role was that of a mother. Women's suffrage did away with that.
    Then you must also be in a position to be able to make your desired changes, which you are not even remotely close to. And that is one big problem I see with the nationalist movements, they only see a black and white scenario. Either they must take power and have everything the way they want to or their people must perish. In the meantime, the world continues to spin, it does not wait for them to take power. While some people expect race wars, civil wars and whatnot to begin, the system we live under continues. Just because you don't like this system and are not willing to work from inside it does not make it any less real. Even if you were to somehow consolidate power, it's highly unlikely that you would keep it for long under the form of a dictatorship. Yes, democracy is an idea, but so is dictatorship, and the reality we live in favors the former (at least in theory) and not the latter. This is how most people have been educated. So if you come at them with insulting generalisations like "women are the enemy" and "we are going to be taking your rights away" you will find little support, even among other nationalists - as this thread proves, opinions about women's suffrage differ.

    The way I see it, things like women's suffrage are of secondary importance, since we are not able to legislate them. The most important thing for nationalists should be how to make nationalism more palatable to the average person, and this is not because of love for democracy - because you also need people's support in a dictatorship. If you don't have it, you may be dethroned by force, for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    Completely true, but it also seems to be true women have a natural inclination to favor inclusivist and collectivist visions of organising society, at least more than men, although women can be easily socialized not to go with that instinct. It really took the 20th century for women to go overboard with universalism and humanism too. Whatever may be the case: every government ever, and especially oppressive forms of government, is propped up by women. A government will collapse faster when women withdraw their consent than when men do. It makes the boys start a rebellion.
    Nationalism can also be - and according to many is - inclusivist and collectivist. And if women's support isn't negligible, you'd better want them on your side rather than against you. You know the saying behind every successful man there is a strong woman, it somewhat rings true. Just because women are not physically as strong as men does not mean that they cannot rally against you. As you say, they can make the boys start a rebellion. So IMO, women's support is no less crucial than that of men, which is why it made sense to give it to them officially as well.

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  15. #640
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Pride View Post
    Then you must also be in a position to be able to make your desired changes, which you are not even remotely close to.
    Sure. This is merely a theoretical subject. But all major changes in society started among people outside of positions of power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Pride View Post
    And that is one big problem I see with the nationalist movements, they only see a black and white scenario. Either they must take power and have everything the way they want to or their people must perish.
    I think it would be enough to establish a political framework which favors our objectives in the long-run. Take Bosnia, for example, where the Ottomans subjected the Christians to increased tax-burdens (jizya) in relation to the Muslim population. After a few generations, the vast majority of the population went from being Christian to being Muslim. Sustained and incremental tendencies towards a specific goal can work wonders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Pride View Post
    Yes, democracy is an idea, but so is dictatorship, and the reality we live in favors the former (at least in theory) and not the latter.
    I don't think anyone has ever supported dictatorship for the sake of dictatorship. While democracies are popularly glorified and considered legitimate, in and of itself, simply because they are democracies. Democracy is highly process-oriented, while dictatorship is highly result-oriented. I'm non-dogmatic when it comes to process. Results are the only thing that matters in the end. And I think it's important that we as Nationalist and as Nations adopt that kind of mindset, especially as we're nearing minority status in our own homelands.
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