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Thread: Masonry: The Struggle for the Soul of Europe

  1. #11
    Senior Member skyhawk's Avatar
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    Hello Egil ,

    If i have offended you in my statement sincere apologies. As Orwell said " It is not the right for free speech it's the right to say what people don't want to hear. "
    I am very respectful to the elders of a community. And I don't mean that in a patronising way whatsoever you have to believe me on that. The passion in your reply defending your beliefs is admirable . I probably won't reach the age you have but if I did I would be proud to hold the same passion and I know I would too. We are not so different just looking from opposite directions.

    Passion is one thing anger is another. As I am new I know not where you write from , so , out of respect for you I wish not anger you further with a series of ongoing posts but I think your passion deserves an answer. I will try to be thoughtful.

    I will always defend socialism and seek to expose Capitalism as the fraudster and poverty breeder i believe it to be. It's a massive debate. I remember in your first post welcoming me you told me that nobody would try and convert me to Heathenism and i respect that. I likewise have no intention to try and convert anybody to socialism. I have many passions . Animals and their treatment , the environment , music, football etc socialism is just another one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Egil Skallagrimsson
    I must seriously challenge the statement that America's ambitions and foreign policy (of which I do NOT approve) are imperialistic. If we were imperialists, having won a military victory in Iraq, we would have taken over the country, occupied it , set up martial law and made it a colony.
    If you do not approve of the foreign policy you must have doubts of your own . I have read your posts and I think that you are a nice person. This , I think, is why you have those doubts.

    As for Iraq not being a colony, as you said yourself mission achieved but no sign of withdraw. Colonialism has changed . Occupation is it's new name. Colony implies a long term commitment. Occupation is more flexible it allows you to get in , do what needs to be done ( for ones own gain ) and get out when the commitment pledge comes into play.
    Quote Originally Posted by Egil Skallagrimsson
    Instead, we tried to make a nation self-governing, which it has NEVER been in its 6000 year history. We overthrew a despot, which it was not in our national interest to do. Having done this, we had no further role to play there and should have gotten out..
    I was no fan of Saddam . There are many despots in the world . Many genocides to intervene in but the proposed noble aims this conflict were imho a smokescreen for the resource war we have embarked on. Saddam in Iraq , Chavez in Venezuela , Iran all anti american , all with the oil . They know if the oil stops the US stops

    Quote Originally Posted by Egil Skallagrimsson
    The only imperialistic venture in which the US has ever engaged was the Spanish American War. We seized Cuba, Puerto Rico, and the Phillipines, over the protests of many famous Americans. Only Puerto Rico remains to us.
    I know of this war. Cuba has fared better than the other two certainly as regards the welfare of its people despite spending decades under sanctions. A remarkable feat considering their main sponsor died many years ago now , the USSR . Both the others are poor countries.
    Quote Originally Posted by Egil Skallagrimsson
    Though there is an independence movement there, it has little popular support, despite not being suppressed by the "imperialist" US government, because most Puerto Ricans realise that they are far better off economically as a US territory than they would be as an independent nation.
    No need for suppression , Egil , people have watched the US military machine in action. The interdependence of nations makes "independence" a hopeless cause for many poor nations
    Quote Originally Posted by Egil Skallagrimsson

    The seizure of the Hawaiian Islands by the US was certainly imperialistic, but it was not done by the US government, but by a gang of businessmen who held up Queen Liliuokalani at gunpoint in her palace and stole Hawaii from her.
    Granted, the US government approved the fait accompli
    It doesn't always merit an army to overthrow a government or monarch . The governmental approval is to me proof of at the very least ,and i think you'll agree I am being kind here, some vested interest of some sort. I can't imagine them dumping tony blair and approving the gunman who forced his resignation, more's the pity
    Quote Originally Posted by Egil Skallagrimsson
    One valid claim to greatness which the US has is that it is still the Land of Opportunity. No one is being prevented from emigrating, but almost nobody is doing it. However, millions are clamoring to get IN and share our prosperity and those rapidly eroding freedoms which we still retain.

    We are still the most philanthropic nation on Earth, BAR NONE. Whenever there is a disaster anywhere in the world, to whom do they turn for aid ? England ? France ? Germany ? Russia ? NO, the USA because our generosity is legendary .
    I have found loads of americans to be really nice caring people. I am not judging or condemning the american in the street . But the foreign policy of the american goverment is what people of the world WILL judge american people on. If americans looked out more instead of in all the time they would know what I say to be true. Your foreign policy misrepresents the good people of the US.

    All the countries you have mentioned give as much if not more in relative wealth. American commerce is legendary.



    Quote Originally Posted by Egil Skallagrimsson

    Is any other country in the world giving away billions of dollars in foreign aid ?
    If we are so greedy and materialistic, we ought to keep our money at home. BTW, it is not money which is the root of all evil, but the LOVE of money. .
    I would like to see the figures for foreign aid and compare that with national income. The countries you are so charitable to are poor only because of the exportation of slavery . They are rich in resources but the wealth from these resources line the pocket of other nations

    I agree its your love of money dictates your foreign policy . AS you have said people come to enjoy the wealth in the US. Where do you think that wealth comes from? It's a simple equation for someone to have a pile of money someone has to have hardly any. The US never abolished slavery they exported it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Egil Skallagrimsson
    While I am up on my soap box, I should like to ask the anti-capitalists here what they would substitute for venture capital in starting new businesses.
    To start any kind of a business, one needs MONEY. If it be a manufacturing business, one needs a building, machinery, raw materials, advertising, and wages to pay the employees before anything has been made or sold. Where is this supposed to come from ?

    If it be a mercantile business, one has to have a stock of goods to sell. They have to be paid for. Who is paying the bills before anything is sold ? Whoever provides this money is a capitalist. Except in a barter-based economy, capitalism is unavoidable.

    Yes, I know, in the late unlamented Soviet Union, the state owned all the businesses and provided the venture capital for them. This was just state capitalism. Socialism replaced individual capitalism with state capitalism. Judging from the abominable quality of manfactured goods produced under this system, it didn't work very well. Constant shortages of consumer goods would seem to imply that a state-capitalist economy , masquerading as Socialism, didn't benefit the workers much either..
    For true socialism to answer the questions you have raised about how to replace the money trick you must be prepared to read what its greatest thinkers Marx , Lenin suggest. I think what we have seen in the relatively short spell of Socialist States is a small glimpse of what could be achieved .

    I know most americans have stopped looking at the former USSR since the cold war but if they did they would see the mess that place is in. They have massive unemployment , chronic and I mean chronic drug and alcohol abuse the women escape by selling themselves on the web . If you knew how bad it has gone since the end of communism, and let's be honest , i think had Lenin not died when he did and the common front comprise of large numbers of participating countries ie had the german , hungary, france etc revolutions been successful we might be looking at socialism in a totally different light today.
    Quote Originally Posted by Egil Skallagrimsson
    I am curious to know just what IS supposed to constitute greatness ? In what ways does the USA fall short of this standard ? And, for that matter, if the USA isn't great, WHO IS ?
    Nobody is great. Thats the whole point. We all know intinctively what is right and what is wrong , we don't need a leader to tell us. Poverty is wrong , fact. The Oil war is condemming millions of people to death. We are heading for a calamity here. We have the sun for free but theres no money to be made in daylight. You can't control the market.

    Capitalism WILL fail , it eats itself to death. Whether the planet survives its demise is not so certain . I believe if you do nothing to improve the future you are the enemy of your children.

    As I said at the start Egil, I have not come here court outrage. Or recruit soviets. The point is we are all being lied to. Some believe and some don't.
    By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.

  2. #12
    Senior Member skyhawk's Avatar
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    I thought I would clarify my position to everybody who read the previous posts here. I feel it important to do so.

    Socialism is DEAD. It was a weak child that died long before the end of the cold war. It died because of mans greed and inhumanity . The truth is the masses are ( and always have been ) indifferent to their suffering. They are institutionalised by the very system that oppresses them. Nothing has changed !!!

    I have nothing but contempt for the current world system.

    I see no future in flogging the dead horse that is socialism today. Although I will never stop believing it to be a far better and fairer system than capitalism.

    I think the question of today is a simpler one than in the past. Should we have capitalism or socialim, or libralism , or nationalism etc etc.?
    The question is should we stand by ( whatever our politics ) and watch the Illuminati ( which is what this thread is about ) destroy everyone on the planets future.?

    Like it or not the US is the Illuminati's biggest weapon and staunchest ally in the creation of a new world order. The one world government. It is not the american people I dislike it is it's lead role in the birth of the NWO played by its leaders. It is only the americans who can change that role. And if they were to look at the world without the rose coloured spectacles of national pride they would see the evil that prevails. Don't believe the hype we are at the edge of the abyss here do not let national pride blinker you from the truth .
    By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.

  3. #13
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    I'm skeptical of all 19th century isms, capitalism and socialism both. I don't think either one has the answer to cure all society's ills by themself. As I said before I think we need both systems to balance each other out. We ought not put all our eggs in one basket. Under a purely capitalistic society you have dirty factories, 18-hour days, child labor, and all kinds of exploitation. Seeing its track record through the past century I don't think pure socialism is any better. Putting 100% faith into some fallible ideology is never a good thing, whether its nationalism, liberalism or what have you.

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    Hard cash

    Whether there is any respect for hard cash in the USA today, I wouldn't venture to say. It doesn't matter because there is no such thing, hasn't been for decades.

    All of our money, whether in the form of coins or bills, is fiat money (from the Latin verb for "Let it be done"). It is quite possible that most of you have never seen a $1 silver certificate. The obverse reads: "This certifies that there is on deposit in the Treasury of the United States one dollar in silver, payable to the bearer on demand." In other words, it is a promissory note.

    Now, look at the dollar bill in your wallet, a Federal Reserve note. There is no mention of silver, nor is there any mention of paying the bearer anything. In the upper left-hand corner there is one sentence which reads "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private" So, this piece of paper has become one dollar and it isn't backed by ANYTHING.

    However, the legal tender laws force us to accept this piece of paper as one dollar. These laws can be enforced upon us, but for several decades, other nations could and did demand payment in gold for international transactions, until our gold supply became so depleted that the Treasury had to demand that other nations accept our fiat money.

    Silver was demonetized during the VietNam war, thus removing the brakes from the printing presses, permitting them to run off bushels of fiat money to pay for Johnson's ego trip.

    Our coins (those that actually circulate, that is) are all worthless pieces of base metals which don't even represent fractions of a dollar's worth of silver.
    Before the VietNam war, we had only two base-metal coins: the penny and the pre- and post- WWII nickels. All of the rest were about 92.5% silver.

    We can't afford to mint silver coins now because the dollar is worth much less than an ounce of silver. Even when the Silver Certificate was in common use, the Treasury printed more of them than could be honored. This drove up the value of silver and down the value of the dollar, until silver coins were worth more as silver bullion than as currency.

    Soon, silver coins were being hoarded. They still are. Hard cash is still respected. It has real intrinsic value. It remains an inescapable truth that
    YOU CAN'T RUN OFF SILVER AND GOLD ON A PRINTING PRESS ! Lest we have any hedge against inflation during the "Great Depression", Franklin Roosevelt stole our hoarded gold, by Executive Order, and, until very recently, we free Americans couldn't legally own gold coins !

    Every time that the Secretary of the Treasury says that he is going to "increase the money supply", what he means is that he is going to allow the Treasury to print more bills with nothing to support them. Gresham's Law states that "Bad money drives out good." And so, "increasing the money supply" dilutes the value of the pre-existing currency. The dollar becomes progressively weaker.

    The American people are accustomed to and expect a rate of inflation of around 4%. It has averaged 3.936% for some time. Look at a 1950's newspaper sometime and be prepared for "sticker shock". The prices are incredible ! They're about 1/7 those of today. Of course, wages were proportionally lower also. A 1957 dollar had about 7 times the buying power of a 2007 dollar.

    This is the inevitable consequence of a currency which has no material basis. I have heard it said that our fiat currency is based on the industry and business of the United States. HOW CAN IT BE ? The government DOESNT OWN these industries and businesses, so how can it base its currency on them ?

    I have often urged that we should return to the gold standard. The objection always raised to this is that there isn't enough gold in the world to support a multi-trillion dollar economy. If our money were based on gold, it wouldn't BE a multi-trillion dollar economy. If our money were worth more, we wouldn't need so much of it.

    Paper money was a brilliant idea, but also a perilous one. It permits (and in my opinion encourages) inflation which is impossible with a purely metallic currency. Admittedly, though, it is awkward and inconvenient to go around carrying a pocketful of heavy metal coins. Personally, I'd accept the inconvenience if I knew that my money was going to be worth the same decade after decade.

  5. #15
    Senior Member skyhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torquil
    I'm skeptical of all 19th century isms, capitalism and socialism both. I don't think either one has the answer to cure all society's ills by themself. As I said before I think we need both systems to balance each other out. We ought not put all our eggs in one basket. Under a purely capitalistic society you have dirty factories, 18-hour days, child labor, and all kinds of exploitation. Seeing its track record through the past century I don't think pure socialism is any better. Putting 100% faith into some fallible ideology is never a good thing, whether its nationalism, liberalism or what have you.
    And I thought this thread was about the Illuminati lol

    Judging by the seeming lack of interest in the title of this thread ( obviously not many here subscribe to the theory ) we will learn , once again , the hard way. Armageddon , Ragnarok , Judgement Day whatever you believe , they all tend to agree , it has been written !

    I don't think human nature can ever put 100 % faith into anything whatever it is. We haven't the capacity . However , I take your point about extremes.

    I am not 100% red first and formost. I value freedom as much as equality , which may be seen as a liberals claim to fame and with good reasons. A good person is a good person , full stop.

    I don't think , personally , we have ever seen a long term , world socialist state as such. What we have seen are the wobbly legs of a child learning to walk. Surrounded by parents who actively oppose and impede that childs progress for fear of one day handing over the reigns of power.

    I notice in your post how the down side of Capitalism is easy to list , the usual suspects so to speak. We can all see it. Or pretend , like some , that we don't see it. Which is easier if you are able to look at that list from afar. Yet, when addressing socialism there was no list easily availabe , it was easier to dismiss it as more of the same. Remembering how we might have seen only the fledgling emergence of socialism , that in itself constitutes a good start in my book. I know people will think of a thousand challenges why it offers no hope for progress they always have. ( I have no desire to answer them either lol ) We have been under the same system for hundreds of years. It is only natural for us to feel negative toward a change in that system. The current system is however unsustainable , imho ,due to its impact on the environment alone, there is no choice but to change something drastically. If not for ourselves certainly for our children.
    By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.

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    Masonry........

    Before these questionably relevant issues were introduced recently, there had been NO action in this thread for months. At least we have got some discussion going. Hurrah for irrelevance !

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    Senior Member Kith of woden's Avatar
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    Im well aware of the perils of the illuminati and the nwo and all the other ideaologies of the "secret" societys .But I think Torquils analogy pretty much sums it up for me. I dont think we have ever seen a socialist state as it was meant to be .I think the reason we can all "sound off " a long list of problems regarding pure capitalism is that we are living the nightmare and can relate to it. Socialism has always been hijacked by self serving lunatics like Stalin and capitalism by the likes of Bush and Blair( also self serving lunatics) .The solution to me would be to oust the self serving lunatics and try to find some middle ground. Easier said than done but if we dont have some kind of hope then the illuminati have won. We all have our political Ideals but while a minority of greedy despots(illuminati) are running the show, there simply isnt a political ideal. Waes Hael!

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    Senior Member skyhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egil Skallagrimsson
    Before these questionably relevant issues were introduced recently, there had been NO action in this thread for months. At least we have got some discussion going. Hurrah for irrelevance !
    Hello Egil,

    The lack of activity , I feel , is a mixture of indifference to the existance of the Illuminati in the first place and the lack of belief that , even if proof of its existance became more manifest, their chances of success ( to create a one world government ) would be slim anyhow.

    Personally, I think , any sort of Illuminati type network is a natural progression of the current world system. Much wants more if you like. It will be observed that all the great historical powers have had world domination inclinations only to see their own downfall occur before realising their ambitions. Let us hope the Illuminati will fair no better than the rest in this quest.
    By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.

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    Senior Member skyhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egil Skallagrimsson
    Before these questionably relevant issues were introduced recently, there had been NO action in this thread for months. At least we have got some discussion going. Hurrah for irrelevance !
    Hello Egil,

    Foreign Policy and ambitions of world domination are relevant and always have been. One paves the way for the other does it not?
    By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.

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    Masonry: The Struggle for the Soul of Europe

    Maybe so, but I don't see any connection to [Free]Masonry or much to the struggle for the soul of Europe.

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