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Thread: The Armanen Futhork

  1. #11
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    LOL, seems like one of those people with a lively and creative imagination. Too bad my German is awful, I'd love to read something by him.

    But again about the runes: My own knowledge of them is next to nothing, but I've heard some claims of this "rune mysticism" stuff being pure new age and national romanticism without any historical, scientific basis. I mean, is there even any concrete piece of historical evidence supporting the claim that the ancient Scandinavians had also other meanings or practices for runes than just alphabet?

    No offence to anyone or their religion, I'm just being sceptical as usual.
    .

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    Well, the name says it, Kalevi:
    The term "Rune" was used for "letter" as well as for "secret"; so you can be quite sure that there's also another meaning behind all this than just e.g. the sound "a" for example. Further more special Runes, like Algiz or Fehu, were used in talismans and protecting symbols, e.g. in the Ægishjalmur or Bindrunes - and it would be quite weird if people would have thought of the letter "f" or "z" to have magical powers.

    Of course a lot of these modern interpretations are quite weird; if you want to find out about the old meaning you should look back in the past and look at old symbols, talismans and jewellery instead of looking into books made by Bluhm and Thorsson.
    Lík börn leika best.

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    Ok, thanks. This seems to be a rather messy subject, with all the romanticism and new age ambitions from the 19th century to this day. When reading an article about runes, one can not but wonder whose theories is this knowledge based on or is there any other ways to interpret what is being said in a saga etc. And linguistics, and to some extent archaeology too, is a whole another field where there is always at least some controversy.

    But yes, people were quite religious back then and I think it's relatively safe to assume that they didn't just write meaningless junk in their talismans.
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blutwölfin
    Well, the name says it, Kalevi:
    The term "Rune" was used for "letter" as well as for "secret"; so you can be quite sure that there's also another meaning behind all this than just e.g. the sound "a" for example. Further more special Runes, like Algiz or Fehu, were used in talismans and protecting symbols, e.g. in the Ægishjalmur or Bindrunes - and it would be quite weird if people would have thought of the letter "f" or "z" to have magical powers.

    Of course a lot of these modern interpretations are quite weird; if you want to find out about the old meaning you should look back in the past and look at old symbols, talismans and jewellery instead of looking into books made by Bluhm and Thorsson.
    BW, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with the rest of us. It is extremely impressive. I hope you are in a field where you can use that expertise.

    I will try to get those books via inter-library loan. We have copies of this stuff stuck in university libraries here--believe it or not--most of it was stolen from German libraries and then brought over, then left in the stacks section of numerous university libraries after the original "thief" book owners passed away or donated them. That was how I got my hands on Otto Rahn's books. My German friends who have studied here are always fascinated with what you can so readily get your hands on over here, since most of these publications would be illegal to possess in Germany.

    Unfortunately, our government here keeps tabs on what you check out from the library. I know this for sure because for years now I have been under some type of surveillance and I have done nothing other than check out books. I've spend a large portion of my adult life in grad school. I don't vote, and am not affiliated with any political org. I've never committed a crime and had never publically protested anything. There would be no reason to do this to me at all.

    A few years ago, I would have never even joined a public internet forum like this one, but since I know that "they" are keeping tabs on me anyway, I just don't care any longer. I noticed this "surveillance" garbage every single time I boarded an airplane. I was always the random person to be checked. It didn't matter if the flight was domestic or international, if it had 50 people or 500, I was always the person singled out and then thoroughly checked. My bags are almost always detained and I usually don't get them back until several days later. Once a ticket checkout person felt sorry for me and told me that I was on some type of FBI list because when my name came up on her screen, there was something that indicated I was "special." If I have to fly anywhere now, I prepare a large carry-on purse to put my toothbrush and extra drawers in so I won't have to wear the same pair for 3 days or go around with bad breath. Anyway, it gets irritating sometimes to say the least. Alas, the joys of living in the land of freedom and democracy.

    Kalevi (Isn't that a brand name of some Swedish caviar or pate or something? I think I remember that from my time abroad. Is it Finnish for something or just a neat name?), there actually are historical accounts of the Germanic tribes using the runes for magical purposes, such as denoting future events and predictions. They are found in the writings of the Roman-Tacitus. Many of his accounts are derogatory, or his accounts completely misunderstand or misinterpret what he had witnessed, but these are the earliest accounts written by an outsider about the Germanic tribes, and nonetheless, they do give an interpretation and perspective on what the daily life of the Germanic peoples was like. Unfortunately, because this is practically the earliest observation we now have, what he wrote is sometimes all scholars have to go by, as far as a thorough written account. We of course also have the original oral traditions and Skaldic literature which was later written down for all to enjoy. There is plenty of evidence out there that the runes were used for this purpose too. It's just that today we have become so rational, perhaps too rational. I think this is within each of us, we just have to rediscover it and find it again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IvyLeaguer
    I know this for sure because for years now I have been under some type of surveillance and I have done nothing other than check out books.
    :speechles

    Quote Originally Posted by IvyLeaguer
    Kalevi (Isn't that a brand name of some Swedish caviar or pate or something? I think I remember that from my time abroad. Is it Finnish for something or just a neat name?)
    :
    I doubt that, but at least here they sell a product called "Kalle's caviar paste" or something. Kalevi is an ordinary Finnish first name. I just pulled it out the hat for having nothing to do with my real name or my other net aliases.

    Quote Originally Posted by IvyLeaguer
    there actually are historical accounts of the Germanic tribes using the runes for magical purposes, such as denoting future events and predictions. They are found in the writings of the Roman-Tacitus. Many of his accounts are derogatory, or his accounts completely misunderstand or misinterpret what he had witnessed, but these are the earliest accounts written by an outsider about the Germanic tribes, and nonetheless, they do give an interpretation and perspective on what the daily life of the Germanic peoples was like. Unfortunately, because this is practically the earliest observation we now have, what he wrote is sometimes all scholars have to go by, as far as a thorough written account. We of course also have the original oral traditions and Skaldic literature which was later written down for all to enjoy. There is plenty of evidence out there that the runes were used for this purpose too.
    Thanks. Haven't read any of those very intensively.
    .

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    Kalevi and Kalle.............. I know about the Kalle brand, but isn't there a Kalevi something too?

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    Are The Armanen Runes 'Real Runes'?

    As an addition to this topic:

    The Armanen Runes lack every kind of evidence and are no real Runes, but invented ones, resp. changed Scandinavian Runes.
    Lík börn leika best.

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    Re: Sv: The Reich & The Runes

    Quote Originally Posted by Blutwölfin
    The Armanen Runes lack every kind of evidence and are no real Runes, but invented ones, resp. changed Scandinavian Runes.
    I disagree with this argument.

    While Guido von List [1848 - 1919] 'invented' the "Armanen Runes" over 100 years ago, he worked completely within the tradition.

    Just as had the Swede Johannes Bureus in the 16th century when he too invented his 'Aldalruna' [and who influenced List].

    True, both men followed closely the Viking Runes [or Younger Futhark] - which were themselves invented by the Vikings in the Viking era [i.e., 8th to 11th centuries].

    In fact, the Viking 'invention' was far more radical than that of Bureus or List.

    The Vikings reduced the 24 rune-stave Futhark to a 16 runestave Futhark!

    Around the same period, the Anglo-Saxons meanwhile, had expanded the 24 up to 33 runes!
    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=36742

    In contrast, List only added 2 extra runes to the Viking row, which two he took from the Anglo-Saxons anyway.

    So List, like Bureus, like the Vikings, and like the Anglo-Saxons before him, was working very much within the tradition; and the tradition itself always uses invention, otherwise it would never expand [or contract, as in the Viking example].

    So in actual fact, all of List's runes were pre-existent in the tradition, and so were/are 'real'.
    He rather invented his own 'system' firmly based on the tradition, taking the Elder Edda [i.e., Odin's Rune Song] as the foundation for this system!

    Therefore it is incorrect to say that his system "lacked evidence", or that his runes "are no real Runes".

    To say this suggests a misunderstanding of runology in general, and of List in particular.

    What are the criteria for "real runes"?



    Armanen Runes


    Various Viking Futharks for comparison with the Armanen;








    References only:
    Armanen
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armanen_runes
    http://www.armanen.co.uk

    List;
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guido_von_List

    Bureus;
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Bureus

    Viking Runes;
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Younger_Futhark

    Elder Futhark;
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elder_Futhark

    Runes [includes info on Anglo-Saxon runes;
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runic
    Last edited by Moody; Thursday, July 13th, 2006 at 01:03 PM.
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    Sv: The Reich & The Runes

    List got his runes from his long line of ancestors.. via dreams.. . He gave nw meanings to the original runes, he formed them the way he wanted to have them.

    The younger Futhark was some sort of shorthand for the old runes - the meaning of every particular rune stayed the same.
    Lík börn leika best.

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    Re: Sv: The Reich & The Runes

    Quote Originally Posted by Blutwölfin
    List got his runes from his long line of ancestors.. via dreams.. . He gave nw meanings to the original runes, he formed them the way he wanted to have them.
    The younger Futhark was some sort of shorthand for the old runes - the meaning of every particular rune stayed the same.
    This is not true; the Younger Runes changed some of the Elder meanings quite radically - again, more radically than did List.

    Likewise the Anglo-Saxons, who actually swapped some of the runes around.

    Guido von List did no more and no less than did the inventors of the Viking and Anglo-Saxon runes.

    Were the Viking and Anglo-Saxon runes "real"?
    Of course they were - so are the Armanen.

    As for dreams, List experienced runic inspiration when he had an eye operation and lost his sight for a short while.
    This he related to Wotan who removed an eye to gain the wisdom of Mimir.

    So List was always inspired by the runic and Eddaic traditions, and stayed faithful to them.

    His Armanen rune meanings were based on the 18 songs of Odin's Rune List in the Elder Edda!

    Odin's Quest after the Runes [the runes start at 'The Song of Spells', verses 145 - 164];
    http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/havamal.html#runes

    Earlier thread;
    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=45794

    General Rune Info;
    http://www.arild-hauge.com/eindex.htm
    Last edited by Moody; Tuesday, July 11th, 2006 at 06:45 PM.
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