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Thread: Laws Don't Mean Anything

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    I think you have gone off on a bit of a post apocalyptic tangent there. If being weak makes us all equal, as in equally weak, why is that desirable? You would be dominated all the same. Surely being equally strong is better?

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    Quote Originally Posted by renownedwolf
    I think you have gone off on a bit of a post apocalyptic tangent there. If being weak makes us all equal, as in equally weak, why is that desirable? You would be dominated all the same. Surely being equally strong is better?
    It doesn't require the apocalypse. If you have one community of elderly flower collectors who have a nice farm that produces lots of tasty chickens, and you have another community [or clan] of hungry murderers, rapists, and street thugs living just a mile away, and there's no higher moral authority or force to interject itself at any point, what do you think might possibly happen?

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    Who is to say these elderly flower collectors aren't all highly organised marine veterans armed to the teeth lol?

    But taking it at face value, is it the fault the murderers for being stronger in that given situation or the gardeners for being weak and not being prepared to face the murderers, thieves and rapists?

    Moral authority is always decided by those who have the monopoly on force. It has been and always will be the way of the world

    Promotion of weakness is never a good ideal, no matter how much you dress it up in 'My weakness is my strength' crap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by renownedwolf View Post
    Who is to say these elderly flower collectors aren't all highly organised marine veterans armed to the teeth lol?

    But taking it at face value, is it the fault the murderers for being stronger in that given situation or the gardeners for being weak and not being prepared to face the murderers, thieves and rapists?

    Moral authority is always decided by those who have the monopoly on force. It has been and always will be the way of the world

    Promotion of weakness is never a good ideal, no matter how much you dress it up in 'My weakness is my strength' crap.
    But my point was to show that strength, for all its teenage Nietzschean extolment, can be demonstrated to be repugnant, as can any moral system built around it. A rapist is stronger than his victim; is it a good act? A child murderer is stronger than a child; is he a good person? 'The strong ruling' just means that the current criminal population of your country would get to pursue its own interests at the expense of yours, which leaves everyone who isn't pond scum in a worse, more oppressed situation than they were in when the state and its laws were strong.

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    You keep equating strength with bad things. Just because the stronger triumphs over the weak in any given situation doesn't make it inherently a bad thing. It just overcomes the weaker, not the other way around.

    What about the strong person who prevents a rape or teaches the potential rape victim to defend themselves against an aggressor? One could argue that the rapist is such because they are weak willed and cannot control their sexual impulses. Does that make weakness bad too?

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    Quote Originally Posted by renownedwolf
    You keep equating strength with bad things. Just because the stronger triumphs over the weak in any given situation doesn't make it inherently a bad thing. It just overcomes the weaker, not the other way around.
    I didn't say it that it's inherently bad. I was saying it's not inherently good, as Nietzscheans maintain.

    What about the strong person who prevents a rape or teaches the potential rape victim to defend themselves against an aggressor? One could argue that the rapist is such because they are weak willed and cannot control their sexual impulses. Does that make weakness bad too?
    Neither weakness nor strength is inherently anything. I don't base my morality on either, but on other things.

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    Well the definintions of strength and weakness would disagree that they don't have inherent qualities, just look at synonyms.

    Main Entry: weakness  [week-nis] Show IPA
    Part of Speech: noun
    Definition: defect, proneness
    Synonyms: Achilles heel, appetite*, blemish, chink in armor, debility, decrepitude, deficiency, delicacy, enervation, failing, faintness, fault, feebleness, flaw, fondness, fragility, frailty, gap, impairment, imperfection, impotence, inclination, inconstancy, indecision, infirmity, instability, invalidity, irresolution, lack, languor, lapse, liking, passion, penchant, powerlessness, predilection, proclivity, prostration, senility, shortcoming, soft spot, sore point, taste*, vice, vitiation, vulnerability
    Antonyms: strength, strong point
    Main Entry: strength  [strengkth, strength, strenth] Show IPA
    Part of Speech: noun
    Definition: stamina, mental or physical
    Synonyms: backbone, body, brawn, brawniness, brute force, clout, courage, durability, energy, firmness, force, fortitude, hardiness, health, healthiness, lustiness, might, muscle, nerve, physique, pith, potency, pow, power, powerhouse, robustness, security, sinew, sock, soundness, stability, stableness, stalwartness, steadiness, steamroller, stoutness, strong arm, sturdiness, substance, tenacity, toughness, verdure, vigor, vim, vitality, zip
    Antonyms: lack, weakness
    "To demand of strength that it should not express itself, that it should not be a will to overcome, overthrow, dominate, a thirst for enemies and resistance and triumph, makes as little sense as to demand of weakness that it should express itself as strength." Nietzsche

    What do you base your morality on then if not some notion of taking a stronger position as opposed to a weaker one?

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    Quote Originally Posted by renownedwolf View Post
    What do you base your morality on then if not some notion of taking a stronger position as opposed to a weaker one?
    Strength and weakness are inherently amoral. How they are used is what's moral. Without arbitration, the strong and the weak pursue their own ends, which is often evil, and the weak constantly fail when they conflict with the strong. We then see one set of people subjugated to the [often evil] will of another set. The law exists to prevent this from occurring. If you want to see the law as an evil, so be it, but it's an evil that prevents a greater evil from occurring.

    Nietzscheans, OTOH, don't see the strong as equally amoral for some reason. They throw in with the strong and believe that strength, however used, is something to be cherished and should be unfettered to exert itself on everyone and everything.

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    Which returns to my earlier statement of who decides what is moral. In the case of law, he who is stronger and has the monopoly on force decides.

    It doesn't negate your statement that the Nietzschean viewpoint that strength is something, however used, is to be cherished, but only reinforces it. It doesn't prove the invalidity (your interpretation of at least) of the Nietzschean outlook only makes it seem preferable to the alternative. It would seem that it is better to be in the position of strength of the master morality rather than the slave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by renownedwolf View Post
    Which returns to my earlier statement of who decides what is moral. In the case of law, he who is stronger and has the monopoly on force decides.

    It doesn't negate your statement that the Nietzschean viewpoint that strength is something, however used, is to be cherished, but only reinforces it. It doesn't prove the invalidity (your interpretation of at least) of the Nietzschean outlook only makes it seem preferable to the alternative. It would seem that it is better to be in the position of strength of the master morality rather than the slave.
    God decides what's moral. The law, pretty much, agrees. There's no guarantee that the man with greater strength is more noble in intention than the man who is weaker. One man submitting to the other, therefore, is not inherently moral. What's worse is that the fact of subjugating one man's selfish interests to the other through force []is[/i] inherently immoral. So what you have are whims that aren't inherently good being enforced in a way that is inherently bad. This makes it bad in every case.

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