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Thread: The Slaves That Time Forgot

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    Quote Originally Posted by QuietWind View Post
    Your grandfather? The men in your family must have children very late in life. None of my grandfathers were even born yet in 1880. Come to think of it, none of my great-grandfathers was born yet either.


    Great Great Grandfather was born in 1862, in Pervatech (farming village) in Austria. I'm not afraid of giving that information away, because you wouldn't be able to research him in English and I'm willing to bet the records in German are in some old building or some church record, unavailable on the internet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soten View Post
    I recall being told by a historian of Britain that the number of Irish killed during the Cromwellian War was 15 - 20% of the total Irish population. (I checked and that's indeed what the notes say.) I don't know what the size of the Irish population was in 1649/50, maybe someone can find out.
    In order to try to deny food to the Royalist (Irish Catholic) army
    Cromwells troops burned crops all over the country. This resulted in a famine and disease epidemic which killed far more civilians (both Protestant and Catholic) than the actual fighting ever could have.




    The heavily fortified city of Galway in 1651 was the last Irish stronghold to fall to the Parliamentarians, surrendering in 1652.

    The fall of Galway saw the end of organised resistance to the Cromwellian conquest, but fighting continued as small units of Irish troops launched guerrilla attacks on the Parliamentarians.

    The guerrilla phase of the war had been going since late 1650 and at the end of 1651, despite the defeat of the main Irish or Royalist forces, there were still estimated to be 30,000 men in arms against the Parliamentarians. Tories (from the Irish word tóraidhe meaning, "pursued man") operated from difficult terrain such as the Bog of Allen, the Wicklow Mountains and the drumlin country in the north midlands, and within months, made the countryside extremely dangerous for all except large parties of Parliamentarian troops. Henry Ireton mounted a punitive expedition to the Wicklow mountains in 1650 to try and put down the tories there, but without success.

    By early 1651, it was reported that no English supply convoys were safe if they travelled more than two miles outside a military base. In response, the Parliamentarians destroyed food supplies and forcibly evicted civilians who were thought to be helping the tories. John Hewson systematically destroyed food stocks in counties Wicklow and Kildare, Hardress Waller did likewise in the Burren in County Clare, as did Colonel Cook in County Wexford. The result was famine throughout much of Ireland, aggravated by an outbreak of Bubonic plague. [13] As the guerrilla war ground on, the Parliamentarians, as of April 1651, designated areas such as County Wicklow and much of the south of the country as what would now be called free-fire zones, where anyone found would be, "taken slain and destroyed as enemies and their cattle and good shall be taken or spoiled as the goods of enemies". [14] This tactic had succeeded in the Nine Years' War that had ended in 1603. In addition they began selling prisoners of war as indentured servants to the West Indies (especially Barbados, where their descendants are known as Redlegs). A total of 12,000 Irish people were sold as slaves under the English Commonwealth regime. [15]

    This phase of the war was by far the most costly in terms of civilian loss of life. The combination of warfare, famine and plague caused a huge mortality among the Irish population. William Petty estimated (in the Down Survey) that the death toll of the wars in Ireland since 1641 was over 618,000 people, or about 40% of the country’s pre-war population. Of these, he estimated that over 400,000 were Catholics, 167,000 killed directly by war or famine and the remainder by war-related disease. [16]

    http://wapedia.mobi/en/Cromwellian_c...of_Ireland?t=6.
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    It's an interesting subject which merits a more circumspect and even-handed treatment than the article posted in this thread.

    Re; Montserrat, here is what Pete McCarthy had to say in his book The Road to McCarthy.

    In 1668 Lord William Willoughby, governor of Barbados, described Montserrat as 'almost an Irish colony'. The census of 1678 supported his claim, showing a population of 761 English, 52 Scots and 992 African - but 1,869 Irish, more than the other three groups put together. Yet the island was a British possession; so how did the Irish become so predominant that even today the national symbol is Erin on a harp, and passports are stamped with a green shamrock?

    Montserrat was first populated by Arawak and Carib Indians who were deprived of their lands in the traditional manner by forces of the British Empire. It was settled in 1632, largely by English and Irish Catholics who were unwelcome in other colonies because of their religion. While Catholicism wasn't encouraged - it's recorded that Father Stritch of Limerick used to disguise himself as a woodcutter and say Mass in the jungle - it was tolerated, and the Irish population began to swell. Cromwell helped by transporting some of the survivors of Drogheda and other massacres to Montserrat as well as to Barbados. Indentured Irish servants who had served their contracted time on Barbados, and others who had escaped, made their way to Montserrat to find work among their countrymen.

    It seems to have been an uneasy tropical alliance between English and Irish. One English settler wrote: 'These two nations accord not upon this island. The Irish are most malicious against the English.'

    In the late seventeenth and early eighteenth centuries the French had designs on Montserrat and its booming sugar economy, and launched a series of invasion attempts. The Irish residents of the island, resentful of religious and economic discrimination, were happy to assist. In 1665 they helped the French land at Kinsale, an Irish enclave in the south-west of the island named after the port in County Cork that in 1602 was the scene of one of the definitive battles in the fight for Irish independence, when the English won a famous victory. In Kinsale, Montserrat, however, the French came out on top and laid waste to English possessions, leaving the Irish untouched. Two years later crown forces once again took control, but it was clear the Irish were not to be trusted, and sectarian tensions remained close to the surface.

    In 1668 legislation was passed 'to restrain odious distinctions used by the English, Scots and Irish reflecting on each other (English Dog, Scots Dog, Cavalier, Roundhead and many other opprobrious, scandalous disgraceful terms)'. The Act made no mention of the African population.

    Slaves stolen from their homes in Africa began to arrive shortly after the Irish. What resulted was a three-tiered colonial society. The British owned the island, and ran it for their own financial interests. Shrewdly they appointed a series of Irish governors who were also Protestants, and so had one foot in either camp. On the second tier were the bulk of the settlers, Irish Catholics who were forbidden land grants and the subsequent ownership of large plantations because of their religion; they became a white underclass engaged in fishing and subsistence farming, occupations in which they would have received a good grounding under British rule in Ireland. In Montserrat they found themselves in the unaccustomed situation of not being at the bottom of the British-dominated pile, because at the next level down came the Africans: 'the slaves of slaves' as the Montserrat poet and historian Howard Fergus has described them.

    Although the Irish had themselves suffered under the heel of oppression, there is no reason to assume that the treatment of slaves in Montserrat was any less brutal than in other colonies. Irish and Africans lived in close proximity, but this might have been due as much to topography and economic necessity as to solidarity between the races. What is certain, however, is the savagery of the punishment meted out to black slaves. The cutting off of ears and burning with hot irons were commonplace; so were executions by hanging and dismembering, and also by burning 'at the usual place in Plymouth', as in the case of a slave burned to death in 1695 for staling a cow. The slave's owner received £3,500 of sugar from public funds as compensation for his loss.
    McCarthy then describes a failed black rebellion on St. Patrick's Day, betrayed 'by a white seamstress noted for drunkenness'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatest
    My Grandfather bought himself 160 acres for $20 ($400 USD 2008) in 1870.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatest

    Great Great Grandfather was born in 1862, in Pervatech (farming village) in Austria. I'm not afraid of giving that information away, because you wouldn't be able to research him in English and I'm willing to bet the records in German are in some old building or some church record, unavailable on the internet.
    I am guessing that this great-great grandfather was not from the same line as your grandfather mentioned in the previous post?
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    this is a great post there are still ancestors of the Irish and Scott slaves in Jamaica and in Barbados, and other areas, called the red legs and bakras,

    When i confront blacks who go on about slavery and how blacks are some special creature that has been the only race to face slavery and wrong doing i mention the Scotts and Irish slaves of Barbados, and the rest of the Americas they simply tell me that there was never white slaves and that i am a liar and or uneducated. However I get the same reaction from white guilt filled white Americans

    i can tell you in Barbados it was around 50-70 who were of that stock in the 1950s but they have migrated out over the years and become part of the elite and middle class while others died out and others mixed in,
    in the 1900-1930s it was much higher but the community banded together to better there situation. the red leg community decreased quickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soten View Post
    The English did enslave some Irish, but I have no idea how many. As far as massacres go, those happened as well, but the numbers are roughly 1,500 - 2,000 per massacre. Drogheda is maybe the most famous.






    EDIT: That's lower than what I thought actually. I recall being told by a historian of Britain that the number of Irish killed during the Cromwellian War was 15 - 20% of the total Irish population. (I checked and that's indeed what the notes say.) I don't know what the size of the Irish population was in 1649/50, maybe someone can find out.

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