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Thread: The Nine Worlds (Acc. to Crossley-Holland)

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    Exit - I have already told you that this is a Germanic thread/section... and whilst it might be reasonable to bring in really ancient material about the Indo-Aryan myth background, especially with respect to distant general aspects of the Tree and its place in cosmology, it is not really relevant when we have already arrived at the level of these late Norse conceptions.... they have move on far too far. Its as much as we might dare to do in bringing in the earlier Saxon Irminsul! Lets face it, it is (surely) all very different to the earlier world of even the German pagans. ( The English one's had, for the most part, long since been CRUSHED! ).

    We really do have the late flowering of North Germanic mythic-faith conceptions. Treasure it... dont contaminate it! Those others lie far to the south and are well removed!

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    I knew you guys would freak out if I mentioned anything Jewish or Hindu, but that does not take away from what I said, since I could just as easily left those references out -and I was also going to say the zodiacal and planetary spheres- but the point is that there is a hierarchy. Do you want to discuss the world tree or scold me for using comparisons to aid the English language? If the latter then I could just as well go somewhere else; there doesn't seem to be any intellectuals interested in learning anything besides assimilating fragmented information into their own personal systems; such individualism has nothing to do with any tradition whatsoever.

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    exit - Yet apples and pears do not need to be compared. Sure, they are both seed fruit, but it does not follow that there is thus any formal connection between the two.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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    Firstly, I never said they were the same, but they are similar from a doctrinal standpoint. If this is not so then maybe someone can start a thread explaining their position. But as I said, whether or not there is an hierarchy of realms or planes is independant of other traditions. And quite frankly, I'm getting sick of all this fear of "contamination" whenever someone mentions something that isn't "Germanic"; this has been one of the biggest problems in the nationalist movement, and it makes us all look like raving lunatics.

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    Sure, but wouldn't it make more sense to bring up parallels with Siberian cosmographies? They're probably more likely to be genetically related to ours than the Semitic. Why do I never see them brought up in discussion? Is it simply that much of the ethnography hasn't been translated into English?

    I believe the technical aspects of how their multiworld systems were experienced and interpreted probably have more in common with how our Germanic ancestors did things than with most other peoples. I know little about North American shamanism, but I hear it also is allied to the Siberian in many of its essentials.

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    However close one is related to the other may be a matter of opinion, and I don't know much about shamanism; however, Christianity and the kabala has been a part of the Western mystery tradition for centuries as has the planetary and zodiacal systems, and its study is almost unavoidable. Thus, I see no problem in referring to it because I suppose that everyone is familiar with Christianity in some form or another. But all of this is beside the point since I only meant to say that there exists a hierarchy in every single orthodox tradition; no one can honestly deny this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by exit View Post
    I only meant to say that there exists a hierarchy in every single orthodox tradition; no one can honestly deny this.
    I understand the point that you're trying to make here, but it doesn't ring true with most of the Germanic sources. A root system doesn't easily lend itself to a hierarchical interpretation. Placing Midgard at the 'bottom' of a diagram as if it were Malkuth or the Mūlādhāra Cakra would be contrary to all written sources.
    "Ocean is more ancient than the mountains, and freighted with the memories and the dreams of Time."
    -H.P. Lovecraft

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    Sure, but wouldn't it make more sense to bring up parallels with Siberian cosmographies? They're probably more likely to be genetically related to ours than the Semitic. Why do I never see them brought up in discussion? Is it simply that much of the ethnography hasn't been translated into English?

    I believe the technical aspects of how their multiworld systems were experienced and interpreted probably have more in common with how our Germanic ancestors did things than with most other peoples. I know little about North American shamanism, but I hear it also is allied to the Siberian in many of its essentials.
    Here you go:



    Much like Crossley-Holland's model, but I don't see any pattern in the placement of the worlds in his model.



    EDIT: For comparison, here are some other models:

    Finnic:


    Magyar:

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    VinlandViking, thanks for bringing up the celestial dome. This is one cosmological feature that is wholly absent from indigenous Germanic sources. Spengler makes some interesting observations regarding the differences between Middle Eastern (Magian) and European (Faustian) cosmologies as they manifest themselves in sacred architecture. He describes the Magian 'world-feeling' as:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Decline of the West, p. 111
    There is something in the basilicas of Christianity, Hellenistic, Hebrew and Baal cults, and in the Mithraeum, the Mazdaist fire-temple and the Mosque, that tells of a like spirituality: it is the Cavern-feeling.
    Which is in contrast to:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Decline of the West, p. 113
    ...the wooden beams of the Cathedral roof locked themselves into rib-vaulting and an interior was made to actualize and fulfill the idea of infinite space.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Decline of the West, p. 119
    The word "God" has a different sound under the vaulting of Gothic cathedrals...The character of the Faustian cathedral is that of the forest. It is the architectural actualizing of a world-feeling that had found the first of all its symbols in the high forest of the Northern plains, the deciduous forest with its mysterious tracery, its whispering of ever-restless foliage high over the watcher's head, its treetops struggling to escape from earth.
    It is very interesting to note the differences between the finite, domed conception of divinity, which lends itself uniquely to monotheism, and the forest spirit stretching up to the heavens which even Christianity could not erase from the soul of Europe.
    "Ocean is more ancient than the mountains, and freighted with the memories and the dreams of Time."
    -H.P. Lovecraft

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychonaut View Post
    I understand the point that you're trying to make here, but it doesn't ring true with most of the Germanic sources. A root system doesn't easily lend itself to a hierarchical interpretation. Placing Midgard at the 'bottom' of a diagram as if it were Malkuth or the Mūlādhāra Cakra would be contrary to all written sources.
    The position of Midgard is relative to the individual and to the cosmic cycle. It would have to be at the "bottom" since it must encompass total being, and this includes the corporeal human/manifestation, but as was written elsewhere, the world tree must be cut up and reassembled and I'm sure there is a Shamanic tale of this as well. Midgard cannot simply be thought of as stationary at the center because all men aren't at that position, and as it were, the temple was destroyed which implies a fall. The rebuilding of the temple is therefore the spiritual work that must be undergone, which is the sacrifice, the slaying of the dragon, and the cutting of the tree and reassembling it, which would put Midgard, the fortress at its proper position. As for three roots, these do not need to be in the same "ground." The confusion only seems to arise out of spatial symbolism, but only if we forget that geometry is only a symbol. As for the dome, it is seen in the mountain and the mountain cave, so it is not absent in Germanic myth but very much a part of it.

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