Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 47

Thread: Chimpanzees: Not Human, But Are They People?

  1. #1
    Funding Member
    "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member


    Join Date
    May 2004
    Last Online
    @
    Ethnicity
    Flemish
    Country
    Flanders Flanders
    Gender
    Posts
    5,485
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    26
    Thanked in
    23 Posts

    Question Chimpanzees: Not Human, But Are They People?

    A number of scientists and ethicists believe that chimpanzees and other great apes ought to be considered people.
    The position is likely to stir controversy, especially in how to extend the definition of personhood to allow humans and chimpanzees to stand at the same end of the equation. Behaviour like self-awareness, feelings, altruism and high-level cognitive powers are brought into the pro-humanisation defense of these great apes:

    http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2...nzees-not.html

    An older thread dealt with a related ambigious topic about the problem of cognitive qualities and species:

    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=29892

  2. #2
    Senior Member BeornWulfWer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Last Online
    Friday, February 8th, 2019 @ 11:19 PM
    Status
    Available
    Ethnicity
    Anglo-Celt
    Ancestry
    West Country Zider 'ead.
    Subrace
    Brünn/Keltic-Nordic
    Country
    England England
    State
    Wessex Wessex
    Location
    Brycзstow,Sumorsǣte
    Gender
    Age
    39
    Family
    Engaged
    Occupation
    Slinger
    Politics
    Uncer Dæg Willa Becuman
    Religion
    Pagan
    Posts
    1,144
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2
    Thanked in
    2 Posts

    Thumbs Up Susan Savage-Rumbaugh: Apes that write, start fires and play Pac-Man

    Susan Savage-Rumbaugh: Apes that write, start fires and play Pac-Man

    I can't see why the hand of humanity cannot be extended onto the apes.
    People is a very loose term of word, and can clearly be attributed to any grouping of primates which has shown intelligence and clear social structure and language.
    "The only way to get smarter is to play a smarter opponent."

    _________________

  3. #3
    Funding Member
    "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member

    Ulf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Last Online
    Saturday, June 12th, 2010 @ 08:23 PM
    Ethnicity
    Deitsch
    Gender
    Posts
    775
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    I can't see why the hand of humanity cannot be extended onto the apes.
    People is a very loose term of word, and can clearly be attributed to any grouping of primates which has shown intelligence and clear social structure and language.
    Well they are not humans, so I do not think that accepting them into humanity is right, at least semantically.

    Quote Originally Posted by person
    1. A living human. Often used in combination: chairperson; spokesperson; salesperson.
    2. An individual of specified character: a person of importance.
    3. The composite of characteristics that make up an individual personality; the self.
    4. The living body of a human: searched the prisoner's person.
    5. Physique and general appearance.
    6. Law. A human or organization with legal rights and duties.
    Accepting them as people allows them rights and obligations under the law. I think this all may be some ploy to increase the protection these animals are given under the law. Instead of them being poached they would have been murdered, according to the law.

    Also they are unable to fulfill any of the obligations of being a person, aside from having the minimum required mental capacities. They still need to rely on humans for any and all legalities. What would they be able to contribute to? Aside from the bottom line of a zoo?

  4. #4
    Funding Member
    "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member

    Æmeric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Last Online
    @
    Ethnicity
    Anglo-American
    Ancestry
    Britain, Ulster, Germany, America
    Subrace
    Dalofaelid+Baltid/Borreby
    Y-DNA
    R-Z19
    mtDNA
    U5a2c
    Country
    United States United States
    State
    Indiana Indiana
    Gender
    Age
    57
    Family
    Married
    Politics
    Anti-Obama
    Religion
    Conservative Protestantism
    Posts
    6,271
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    573
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    522
    Thanked in
    229 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    Susan Savage-Rumbaugh: Apes that write, start fires and play Pac-Man

    I can't see why the hand of humanity cannot be extended onto the apes. People is a very loose term of word, and can clearly be attributed to any grouping of primates which has shown intelligence and clear social structure and language.
    How very magnanimous of you . But what next, give them the vote. And what about those currently in captivity, should they be able to sue for human rights violations? Btw, have you ever seen Planet of the Apes?

  5. #5
    Senior Member BeornWulfWer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Last Online
    Friday, February 8th, 2019 @ 11:19 PM
    Status
    Available
    Ethnicity
    Anglo-Celt
    Ancestry
    West Country Zider 'ead.
    Subrace
    Brünn/Keltic-Nordic
    Country
    England England
    State
    Wessex Wessex
    Location
    Brycзstow,Sumorsǣte
    Gender
    Age
    39
    Family
    Engaged
    Occupation
    Slinger
    Politics
    Uncer Dæg Willa Becuman
    Religion
    Pagan
    Posts
    1,144
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2
    Thanked in
    2 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulf View Post
    Well they are not humans, so I do not think that accepting them into humanity is right, at least semantically.
    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    I can't see why the hand of --(OUR)-- humanity cannot be extended onto the apes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulf View Post
    Accepting them as people allows them rights and obligations under the law. I think this all may be some ploy to increase the protection these animals are given under the law. Instead of them being poached they would have been murdered, according to the law.
    They are intelligent, display an inherent adaptability for learning languages and socially capable of interacting with other species.

    I can't possibly see a problem for classifying them as 'people' and letting them benefit from the proceeds of our generosity.
    "The only way to get smarter is to play a smarter opponent."

    _________________

  6. #6
    Senior Member Pino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Last Online
    Friday, January 30th, 2009 @ 08:30 PM
    Ethnicity
    English
    Subrace
    Nordid
    Country
    United Kingdom United Kingdom
    Location
    Liverpool, England
    Gender
    Age
    31
    Family
    Single, looking
    Occupation
    Construction
    Politics
    National Socialism
    Religion
    Asatru
    Posts
    261
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1
    Thanked in
    1 Post
    they'll be protesting for more rights outside Parliment soon enough with the talk of them reports.

    Have we not learnt anything from accepting non-whites into our society?

  7. #7
    Funding Member
    "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member

    Ulf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Last Online
    Saturday, June 12th, 2010 @ 08:23 PM
    Ethnicity
    Deitsch
    Gender
    Posts
    775
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    They are intelligent, display an inherent adaptability for learning languages and socially capable of interacting with other species.

    I can't possibly see a problem for classifying them as 'people' and letting them benefit from the proceeds of our generosity.
    I think we gain greater benefit from research. What do we gain from calling them people?

    From a biological point of view, Dr. Pedro A. Ynterian, a GAP Project Board Member wrote in a GAP press release "Between the two of us we could even have a 0.5% difference in our DNA. The difference between a Chimpanzee and us is only 1.23%. Human blood and Chimpanzee blood, with compatible blood groups, can be exchanged through transfusion. Neither our nor the chimps blood can be exchanged with any other species. We are closer genetically to a chimp than a mouse is to a rat."

    Their biological similarity with humans is also key to the traits for which they are valuable as research subjects. For example, testing of monoclonal antibody treatments can not be done in species less similar to humans than chimpanzees. Because the antibodies do not elicit immune responses in chimpanzees, they persist in the blood as they do in humans, and their effects can be evaluated. In monkeys and other non-apes, the antibodies are rapidly cleared from the bloodstream. Monoclonal antibody treatments are being developed for cancer; autoimmune diseases such as rheumatoid arthritis, lupus erythematosis, multiple sclerosis, psoriasis, and Crohn's disease; and asthma. Chimpanzees also contain unique advantages in evaluating new Hepatitis B and C vaccines, and treatments for malaria, again because of the similarity in their response to these antigens to humans.

    Professor Colin Blakemore, head of the Medical Research Council in Great Britain from 2003-2007, is also opposed to granting rights to non-human apes, stating "I can see no current necessity for the use of great apes, and I'm pleased that they're not being used and that every effort is being made to reduce the use of other primates. But I worry about the principle of where the moral boundaries lie. There is only one very secure definition that can be made, and that is between our species and others." Blakemore suggests that it would be necessary to perform research on Great Apes if humans were threatened by a pandemic virus that afflicted only humans and other Great Apes.
    Great Ape Project

  8. #8
    Funding Member
    "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member

    Æmeric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Last Online
    @
    Ethnicity
    Anglo-American
    Ancestry
    Britain, Ulster, Germany, America
    Subrace
    Dalofaelid+Baltid/Borreby
    Y-DNA
    R-Z19
    mtDNA
    U5a2c
    Country
    United States United States
    State
    Indiana Indiana
    Gender
    Age
    57
    Family
    Married
    Politics
    Anti-Obama
    Religion
    Conservative Protestantism
    Posts
    6,271
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    573
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    522
    Thanked in
    229 Posts
    Not Human, But Are They People? No. People are human. Animals are not people, no matter how much some people would like to think they are. Why not declare dolphins to be people? They are intelligent & the ability to communicate with each other. And Whales. But giving them personhood is a move in the direction of placing them on an equal legal footing with humans. The concept is just ridiculous. We already have enough problems having extended the concept of personhood to all species of humans, we don't need to further complicate things by making certain non-human mammal species "persons", persons who btw would have to have special court-appointed advocates to represent their legal interests.

    A number of scientists and ethicists believe that chimpanzees and other great apes ought to be considered people.
    Many of today's leading scientists were educated under the warped enviroment that was created by the cultural marxists who gained control of Western universities in the 60s. The idea that simians could be granted personhood (equality with man) is just the next illogical step in the evolution of equality. Not just among all of mankind but among all living things.

  9. #9
    Funding Member
    "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member


    Join Date
    May 2004
    Last Online
    @
    Ethnicity
    Flemish
    Country
    Flanders Flanders
    Gender
    Posts
    5,485
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    26
    Thanked in
    23 Posts
    While some reservations about donning primates personhood seem appropiate, observations among macaques, not exactly specimens of the great apes at all, have indicaated long ago that there is indeed an embryonic form of culture among and a spiritual edge to the group cohesion of these primates, namely of value-attitude system that not by instinct but by learned tradition, ritualization perhaps, was transmitted over the generation and is known as pre-culture.

    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=27547

    See also:
    http://www.livescience.com/animals/0...e_culture.html

    e-book:
    Reaching Into Thought: The Minds of the Great Apes
    By Anne E. Russon, Kim A. Bard, Sue Taylor Parker
    Published by Cambridge University Press, 1998
    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=r...esult#PPP11,M1

    Good job, no baddie attempted to travel back very early in time when australopithicenes roamed the African savannah... a wee few notches above your zoo monkey in terms in intelligence and skills... and blitz them all out of existence.
    Its effect would be enormous, we wouldn't even be here having this discussion.
    As the ancestors to Homo erectus and thus a whole lineage of hominids leading to us were aborted...

  10. #10
    Funding Member
    "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member


    Join Date
    May 2004
    Last Online
    @
    Ethnicity
    Flemish
    Country
    Flanders Flanders
    Gender
    Posts
    5,485
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    26
    Thanked in
    23 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Pino View Post
    they'll be protesting for more rights outside Parliment soon enough with the talk of them reports.

    Have we not learnt anything from accepting non-whites into our society?
    Good job we have NS chavs to turn the tide in the world....

Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. 'Red Deer Cave People' May Be New Species of Human
    By Hersir in forum Paleoanthropology
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: Wednesday, April 20th, 2016, 04:10 AM
  2. It’s “Just Human Nature” to Connect with People Like Ourselves
    By Nachtengel in forum Psychology, Behavior, & Neuroscience
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: Friday, December 24th, 2010, 11:54 AM
  3. The Human Wave: People May Have Evolved Fluidly, With Lots of Interbreeding
    By Frans_Jozef in forum Anthropogeny & Ethnogenesis
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: Wednesday, May 31st, 2006, 02:05 PM
  4. Collectivist Altruism Shown in Chimpanzees
    By Ensittare in forum Psychology, Behavior, & Neuroscience
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: Sunday, March 5th, 2006, 12:04 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •