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Thread: Chimpanzees: Not Human, But Are They People?

  1. #21
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    I admit I haven`t ever researched the `rights` and status of apes and monkeys, but aren`t they protected to some extent by such organisations as the World Wildlife Fund etc?
    People have always humanised animals for one reason or another, usually in the past this was for ceremonial or ritual reason, but I do feel to grant apes and monkeys human rights and use our already limited resources accordingly is the start of something slippery.
    Generally, in the past, rights had to be earned because `rights` confers a supply of resources from somewhere, whether from actual resources like funding or legal acts or from the time and effort given by others on the person receiving the rights behalf.
    I`m not saying, don`t protect such creatures for the sake of a wider, more holistic world, only that to propose giving them human rights smacks of gimmickry, somehow.


    Sigh...I don`t know...I just keep thinking of days long ago when one had to earn rights, by proving to be a profitable/noble/useful member of the society one inhabited. That didn`t necessary even mean that only warriors or the very wealthy had rights, everyone who contributed toward the benefit of the general kin or wider group would have, to some extent, rights, based on their status. Even an aging grandmother unable to physically work could sit by the fire and watch the toddlers whilst the mothers worked elsewhere...earning her meal and bed...
    Simplistic view, maybe, but when I see a world in crisis both economically and politically then I find it hard to muster any great feeling for how creatures far from me fare, and that is honesty.
    If I want to champion the cause of beasts, I can support my local wildlife community which also contains creatures in trouble....

    And just a wee anecdote re the `human rights system`....a while ago here in Orkney, a young english lad, a born troublemaker who delighted in breaking into old age pensioners homes and stealing their life savings, got drunk in a local pub.
    An orcadian man tried to get him to tone it down, because he was getting over rowdy and looking for a fight.
    This young man (19 at the time) is gay.
    After some time when the orcadian reasonably tried to get him to stop being an idiot and upsetting the other regulars in the pub, and being on the receiving end of much verbal abuse from this lad, he lost his temper and called him an `english poof`.
    Orcadians are known for being pretty laid back...it takes a lot to rile them. This was said with nothing more than a healthy dose of scorn.
    So what did the lad do?
    Took him to court.....and got him fined heavily because of the `human rights` system which says it was wrong, and racist, of the orcadian, to call him an english poof.
    The `poof` part of that slid by unremarked upon..
    So you see, even the court of human rights doesn`t always get it right, or provide the end result in an appropriate manner.

    I have future visions of humans, on behalf of apes, taking one another to court pleading, "He called me a black gorilla! That`s racist, that is!"....

  2. #22
    Ethologists like Eibl-Eibesfeldt, Tinbergen, Lorenz and Ardrey spring to my mind; their views, resisted, loathed by rivalry with options on left-wing agendas, but these men, while sotto voce tarnished by the suspicions and false claims raised against them, managed to cause stirs that like a stone thrown in stil water created widely circulating ripples of influence and emendations that touched also the scientific funhouse of the cultural marxists....

    Sociobiology was and still is embraced by the European New Right to counterstrike the fallacity of the multicultural society (actually, a de-constructed community planted over into a laboratorium) and hassling the egalitarian outlook of the intelligentsia with irrefutable tests-proof scientific evidence ....

    Its well-known too that the themes broached by the Liberals, like the problem of freedom and community as well ecological concerns, were once property of the Right, however, in time, and by the narrow scope of diffident reactionaries too, corrupted by the lure of wealth and power and progress, these were handed over to the Left, which used it to buttress their own fabrications and canalize it into politics, media and the arts, with prowing success maybe, but that's the fault of the Right, which sadly throws the baby with the bathwater...

    Time to reclaim our hijacked themes and make them ours again....
    Last edited by Frans_Jozef; Friday, October 17th, 2008 at 02:46 PM. Reason: Grammar...

  3. #23
    There's no need to extend our personhood coupled with "undeniable human rights" to simians as the construct of these juridicial concepts wouldn't work out in reality, but I am a proponent of artgerecht Leben in artgerechte Haltung -- each living apt and true to his or her nature in their designated ecological environment to fullfill their best desitiny... It's a basic, no... essential requirement for all life forms, including humans, to grow, flourish and expand.... It should be the only rule and duty and evident by reading the story of Life itself.

    To which should be add that a degree of recognition and tribute to a stagnant line of primates has nothing to do with enrolling sinister fluffy liberal concepts to decapitate the uniqueness of men and condone egalitarian ideas... It's actually part and parcel of the slumbering but inherent conscience of ramifications that in the course of events brought forth mankind, it's genetic memory. Like the Sippe or Clan was the extended family to the core family of parents and children, and these in-groups formed a Gau or a Nation, the same is applicable in the confrontations of species, and therefore in a way simians like our austrolopithicene ancestors are part of "people-dom", on the level of species, but divided by belonging to another and divergent evolutionary grade... Embryonic so-to-speak.

    Posted earlier on in a lowbrow thread, I think the following exchange is peripherically topical to the current discussion, but might be of valuable interest in general...

    Originally Posted by Æmeric
    I've always found an interesting analogy between "Conquest of the Planet of the Apes" & our modern society. Simians (third-world immigrants) are brought in as cheap labor but demand rights (equality) & led by an above average intelligent ape named Caesar (Obama) overthrow human civilization.
    I follow your analogy but isn't it ironic, with Carlyle and Spengler in mind, that the revolutionary leader against human oppression is named Caesar -- the heroic magnaminous figure to weld the depraved in flourishing their potentials and become the new and powerful ruling class on earth by overturning the old decadent society and issuing reforms?

    It's also very much in line with Integral Traditionalism tells us about the cycles of civilisation, the building-up of involution and decadence innate to a civilisation but after a period of where the iron fist of tyranny and rampant upheaval, ultimate chaos even, brings Man on the brink of self-destruction, only before the very end to be redeemed by a heroic figure that restores the divine and spiritual order before the world immersed into materialism and an utilitarian outlook.

    On the other hand, there's a lot of pessimism out there and on this forum the pages are full of anger, despair, sadness and dismay, blood and tears dripping to waste, despite the Boris Vallejo poses and lofty academic prosa around.
    It looks like a really rooted spiritual edge that gives comfort, hopes but also strength and perseverance in gruelling times of trials and tribulations, nor the titanic will to withstand and fight back, untouched by success and defeat, against all odds, is lacking. Most of all I hear people wail and grunt, here and in the outside world.
    There's no rebellion in Stirnerite sense, which wasn't too much in odds with a Christian uprising, a mentality shift, an elevation from and despite the rigid block of contemporary structures and nefarious forces feeding and enstrenghtening them, the accession of ownership and order in oneself to become a force itself to reverse the polarity of degeneration...
    The world possesses them, they act like possessed and they're herded and manipulated into the slaughterhouse willingly.

    It's a heathen belief that no hunter can kill its game unless the animal wills it to happen, wills it in a contract with life and its denizens to sacrifice itself to the predator or hunter to maintain the higher order of existence...

    In a way, Modern Western Man does so too, but gains no respect for its own butchering, nor in his own eyes as to the scavengers out there, nor does he for a higher ideal or order of things, but purely because it squandered its own edge and destiny....

    But nothing is truly beyond repear and even in loss, a formidable opponent can lay his body down on the battlefield with the smile of an unvanquished soul.....

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulf View Post
    So, they're a lot like us? 98% is close, but not close enough. Sure they have feelings and they're 'smart' but so is my dog.
    Can your dog play Pac-man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulf View Post
    What's the criteria for being a person? It can't be self-awareness or cognitive ability. Elephants and dolphins are very smart.
    Which makes it all the more shameful when we abuse that intelligence for our own ends.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulf View Post
    Is it because they have thumbs or they feel sad sometimes or give each other hugs? I don't understand how one would scientifically prove personhood. If it's based on DNA that 2% is quite a large difference.
    Babies get sad and often need hugs. Yet they don't have an awareness of self.
    Shall we disregard their rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulf View Post
    The destiny of which life? The primate's or the human that could have potentially been saved from disease?
    The humans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulf View Post
    "Rights and responsibilities go together and I've yet to see a chimp imprisoned for stealing a banana because they don't have a moral sense of what's right and wrong. To give them rights is to give them something without asking for anything in return."
    The master bestows the title, it seems.

    I'll stick with Frans De Waal's summary.

    "I've argued that many of what philosophers call moral sentiments can be seen in other species. In chimpanzees and other animals, you see examples of sympathy, empathy, reciprocity, a willingness to follow social rules."
    Quote Originally Posted by Æmeric View Post
    The idea of focusing human qualities & our emotions on animals, including personhood, is a sign of societal decline. It happens to societies that stop reproducing themselves & where the average member no longer values bloodties or of being part of a common folk. The absence & decline of the extented family (a folk is an extended family) leads to a moral & emotional vacuum with animals (and our relationships with them, real or imagined) taking the place of people. Simians or whales, let alone dogs or cats, are poor substitutions for the members of our respective ethnic groups that will never be born, because we are welling to sacrifice our folk in the name of altruism. The idea that intelligent people would even discuss the aspect of personhood for simians is pure insanity.

    Both you and Ulf are overreacting.

    I have not in any sense of the word, implied that the notion of equality should be denoted upon our simian friends at the detriment to human rights or human interests.
    "The only way to get smarter is to play a smarter opponent."

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    I don't see any reason why should we consider animals as people. I share the same opinion: the only term that can be considered under people are humans.
    :Überschöpfung:



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    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post

    I have not in any sense of the word, implied that the notion of equality should be denoted upon our simian friends at the detriment to human rights or human interests.
    Give them legal status as people & before long the lunatic left will want to give them full equal rights. They might even be given refugee status to save them from the Congoid hunters in their native habitat. Don't underestimate the total absurdity of the thought processes of members of the Western political class.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Æmeric View Post
    Give them legal status as people & before long the lunatic left will want to give them full equal rights. They might even be given refugee status to save them from the Congoid hunters in their native habitat. Don't underestimate the total absurdity of the thought processes of members of the Western political class.
    Correct, if we can learn one thing from history it is that we dont learn from history.

    you free Blacks from slavery and then a few hundred years down the line they not only have equality but are beginning to have the whip hand over us.

    Why do people think this will not happen with Monkeys? Our society has become quite competently dumb to allow such a thing to happen.

    and Frans_Jozef, them capuchins are animals that can do tricks, just like you can get a Dog you jump through hoops and horses to jump over fences. They are considerd animals by it's owner and do not get paid for what they do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    Can your dog play Pac-man?
    I've not trained her to do so. Apes only possess the abilities we train them to have. Otherwise an ape would never understand pac man.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    Which makes it all the more shameful when we abuse that intelligence for our own ends.
    Having the benefit of modern medicine is not abuse. If there were better alternatives I'm confident we'd use them.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    Babies get sad and often need hugs. Yet they don't have an awareness of self.
    Shall we disregard their rights?
    Babies are already human, we don't need to develop criteria for their personhood.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    Both you and Ulf are overreacting.

    I have not in any sense of the word, implied that the notion of equality should be denoted upon our simian friends at the detriment to human rights or human interests.
    But it would seem the next logical step for this odd world we live in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frans_Jozef View Post
    There's no need to extend our personhood coupled with "undeniable human rights" to simians as the construct of these juridicial concepts wouldn't work out in reality, but I am a proponent of artgerecht Leben in artgerechte Haltung -- each living apt and true to his or her nature in their designated ecological environment to fullfill their best desitiny... It's a basic, no... essential requirement for all life forms, including humans, to grow, flourish and expand.... It should be the only rule and duty and evident by reading the story of Life itself.
    In an ideal world. Nature often has designs otherwise, and is it not a greater achievement of all the biological and medicinal insights we've gained? The medicines we've designed from apes works not only on us but them. We've been able to theoretically extend their lives along with ours.

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