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Thread: Chimpanzees: Not Human, But Are They People?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pino View Post
    you free Blacks from slavery and then a few hundred years down the line they not only have equality but are beginning to have the whip hand over us.

    Why do people think this will not happen with Monkeys? Our society has become quite competently dumb to allow such a thing to happen.
    Simians have nowhere near the intellect to "hold the whip over us". They would have to have court-appointed guardians/advocates, who would make life miserable for the ape abusers, including those who would share a "collective guilt". There is a presidence for such a likely outcome. Many of our current problems concerning different species of Humanids (from ourselves) comes from White altruism & not from mental abilities of the socalled supressed peoples. This idea of extending personhood to simians just seems so reminiscent of the history of the West since WWII.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulf View Post
    Steve Jones, a geneticist at University College, London, opposes the movement, arguing that, although great apes share as much as 98% of DNA with humans, all species share common DNA to some extent. He also argues that, "Rights and responsibilities go together and I've yet to see a chimp imprisoned for stealing a banana because they don't have a moral sense of what's right and wrong. To give them rights is to give them something without asking for anything in return."

    Kenan Malik writes in Man, Beast and Zombie that demonstrations of apes appearing to use language have lacked rigor, and that there is no evidence that apes possess a natural capacity for language, abstract concepts, or symbolic thought; they do not, in Malik's view, possess anything like humans' awareness of self.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Ape_personhood
    I know it sounds insane but we are already doing this. In Cincinnati for example we have %27 poverty and about %25 incarceration rate. You could rob a bank and you will probably get out of jail in a year. There is no will to enforce the law or standards anymore because everybody breaks them. And we constantly hear the argument that it must be "racism" or "social oppression" causing this behavior. Or that punishing somebody for a crime wont undo it or any other type of nonsense. On the other end we are told we have an obligation to feed these people and lift their quality of life. On one hand place absolutely no standards of conduct on them and on the other hand be obliged to provide an "equal" living standard.

    This also relates to something racially. Like when you have a black person that "acts white". Its a learned behavior from mimicking that the person would never do on his or her own. A parrot can sound intelligent by repeating other people but it doesn't mean it is intelligent. I think people mistake this for real similarity. Just like when monkeys or cats or dogs act human.

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    We need to help them. They are unprevileged and need our help.


    It's our White Burden to bring these savages to America and give them welfare, perferably in Detroit, New Orleans and Cleveland.


    Now if the Africans and Gorillas do not get along, then well that's what we call racial reconciliation. Trust me guys if we just put in a little effort we can bridge the gap between our two peoples. Let's give them affirmitive action to make up for their lack of education.

    If a Gorilla snaps out and kills an African, than obviously the African must have done something to provoke him, right?


    In time the Gorillas will catch up and become our moral equals. And anyone who disagrees is a racist/speciesist and will be subject to section 8 of the ACLU.

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    This thread is about apehood and personhood, not racialism. We've gone on quite a tangent now.

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    Clearly they're not human--they are not the same beast as are we. But, they are quite intelligent and clever....

    People to me is different than human. Human has a more rigidly defined, hard, scientific, biological meaning whereas people is a bit more ambiguous. There can be a group of people (unrelated and radom), there can be say, the Danish people (indication some form of kinship, shared history, etc)....

    Given a bit more of a kinship/shared sense of self casting to the word, the apes (the individual species therein) I suppose while not our people could be thought of as their own people. They are people with each other but not with us, in other words.

    I've never given this an ounce of thought, so please pardon my think-typing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    Susan Savage-Rumbaugh: Apes that write, start fires and play Pac-Man

    I can't see why the hand of humanity cannot be extended onto the apes.
    People is a very loose term of word, and can clearly be attributed to any grouping of primates which has shown intelligence and clear social structure and language.
    If they're persons by force the corollaries of rationality must also apply to them. Can they choose rationally? Then their choices bear consequences for which they're responsible. So how about those chimp genocide trials, then? Clearly, this is sheer nonsense, propagated by nihilists/reductionists. Does questioning why rationality matters make sense to an ape? Can they even in principle comprehend such a notion? If some people wanna be apes so badly, they should go live with them. And no, they're not human. Also, it's amusing how many people conflate intelligence with rationality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Æmeric View Post
    Give them legal status as people & before long the lunatic left will want to give them full equal rights. They might even be given refugee status to save them from the Congoid hunters in their native habitat. Don't underestimate the total absurdity of the thought processes of members of the Western political class.
    I'm not bringing up the absurd idea of bestowing a refugee status towards them, as that is just absurd. We have all seen the growing problems of allowing humans from different nations and cultures reside elsewhere other than their own without deluging our zoos with alien animals , but, it would be quite an achievement to have a set of laws in place to protect them, not as mere animals, but as 'people'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulf View Post
    I've not trained her to do so. Apes only possess the abilities we train them to have. Otherwise an ape would never understand pac man.
    Yet these apes needed no training. Perhaps the difference being inferred?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulf View Post
    Having the benefit of modern medicine is not abuse. If there were better alternatives I'm confident we'd use them.
    I was making a reference to us now incorporating the intelligence of Dolphins in locating and destroying military objects/ordinance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulf View Post
    Babies are already human, we don't need to develop criteria for their personhood.
    Yes, but the way you had structured your criticism, it looked as if the mere lack of self awareness, etc..., was not critical towards being judged (in this case) a person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulf View Post
    But it would seem the next logical step for this odd world we live in.
    But not one I would want to happen. That we can both agree upon.
    "The only way to get smarter is to play a smarter opponent."

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    Quote Originally Posted by SineNomine View Post
    If they're persons by force the corollaries of rationality must also apply to them. Can they choose rationally? Then their choices bear consequences for which they're responsible. So how about those chimp genocide trials, then? Clearly, this is sheer nonsense, propagated by nihilists/reductionists. Does questioning why rationality matters make sense to an ape? Can they even in principle comprehend such a notion? If they wanna be apes so badly, they should go live with them. And no, they're not human. Also, it's amusing how many people conflate intelligence with rationality.
    Rationality is merely taking the best choice or profit with the most cost-efficient tactics given available resources and limited or bountiful options. It's what Pieter de Vroon calls the logic of the crocodile, plain and direct, and that's what computers do as well.

    Humans are more complex and often don't take a rational stance, actually everything what emotions, feelings and affections concerns shows a notable aversion for the Goddess of Reason -- an invention concocted by the thugs of the French Revolution... People risk all for a fleeting idea, a shallow compulsion, that's their privilige maybe... they dare and are able to make a best guess, and take a jump of faith just for the kick of it, or to demonstrate something that can't be captured in mathematical and statistical equations...
    Last edited by Frans_Jozef; Friday, October 17th, 2008 at 08:19 PM. Reason: Spelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    I'm not bringing up the absurd idea of bestowing a refugee status towards them, as that is just absurd. We have all seen the growing problems of allowing humans from different nations and cultures reside elsewhere other than their own without deluging our zoos with alien animals , but, it would be quite an achievement to have a set of laws in place to protect them, not as mere animals, but as 'people'.
    The next logical step would be more stringent laws protecting them from things like poaching and sport. Granting them personhood would hurt research. I'm for protecting all wild species of animal to the best of our collective ability, but we need to recognize their benefit to us based on their genetic closeness to us.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    Yet these apes needed no training. Perhaps the difference being inferred?
    They have the ability for some limited reasoning and logic, but without training by humans they would not have the ability to do things like sign language and play pac-man. Their supposed intelligence is a result of human intelligence. They just have the ability to be trained more effectively than a dog.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    Yes, but the way you had structured your criticism, it looked as if the mere lack of self awareness, etc..., was not critical towards being judged (in this case) a person.
    If we base their personhood solely off of their level of self-awareness then their are other animals that could be considered people. There needs to be a cut off somewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    But not one I would want to happen. That we can both agree upon.
    Indeed.

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    Senior Member SineNomine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frans_Jozef View Post
    Humans are more complex and often don't take a rational stance, actually everything what emotions, feelings and affections concerns shows a notable aversion for the Goddess of Reason -- an invention concocted by the thugs of the French Revolution... People risk all for a fleeting idea, a shallow compulsion, that's their privilige maybe... they dare and are able to make a best guess, and take a jump of faith just for the kick of it, or to demonstrate something that can't be captured in mathematical and statistical equations...
    Whoever said one has to be unfailingly rational to have that as their essential characteristic? The definition of reason as man's essential characteristic dates all the way back to Aristotle. Humans are infinitely more capable of rational thought than most animals. Why extend the notion of a person to an animal if one refuses to hold them responsible for their actions as a corollary? Either one can deliberate and choose on matters, and thus be responsible for their choices, or one cannot, and one is thereby absolved from any responsibility.

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