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Thread: Chimpanzees: Not Human, But Are They People?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by SineNomine View Post
    Whoever said one has to be unfailingly rational to have that as their essential characteristic? The definition of reason as man's essential characteristic dates all the way back to Aristotle. Humans are infinitely more capable of rational thought than most animals. Why extend the notion of a person to an animal if one refuses to hold them responsible for their actions as a corollary? Either one can deliberate and choose on matters, and thus be responsible for their choices, or one cannot, and one is thereby absolved from any responsibility.
    I was under the impression that your previous post laid an accent upon rationality.
    Well, reason, like intuition in regard to instinct, is a bi-polar instrument, where cold, operative calculations merge with impulses of the will and the sensualism of emotive behaviour to make fine-tuned adjustments to a decisions, to make them balanced, goal-orientated, efficient but also appealing and responding to a set of values.
    It's a form of self-domestication.

    In the context of an ape society, the individuals will act their kind of appropiate responsability. Their reason fits their nature of organisation and cognitive abilities. They're however evolutionary impaired to apprehend our notions of social interactions, the rights and duties which ensues them and the code of ritualization that gives structure and sense to our social reality.

  2. #42
    Senior Member SineNomine's Avatar
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    Hmm I don't think we really disagree then.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by SineNomine View Post
    Does questioning why rationality matters make sense to an ape? Can they even in principle comprehend such a notion?

    -----------------------

    Whoever said one has to be unfailingly rational to have that as their essential characteristic? The definition of reason as man's essential characteristic dates all the way back to Aristotle. Humans are infinitely more capable of rational thought than most animals. Why extend the notion of a person to an animal if one refuses to hold them responsible for their actions as a corollary? Either one can deliberate and choose on matters, and thus be responsible for their choices, or one cannot, and one is thereby absolved from any responsibility.
    As I said to you in conversation before, blacks and other races are scarcely capable of intelligent rational thought (to generalise). The same is also true for some white people. We should hold people responsible for their actions but we cannot expect them to live by supposedly self-evident universal ethic codes.

    What do private property, self-ownership and rationality mean to wandering African tribesman? They'll get back to you on that after they've finished biting the head off of a termite.

    As far as apes go, it is common sense that we afford them preferential treatment alongside cats, dogs and horses.

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    Senior Member rainman's Avatar
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    To say that an ape is not capable of rational thought or is less intelligent than you or I even if backed up by statitical or scientific data is speciest. I dont think you want to be called a speciest because you could get fired from your job.

    Anyway even if science does prove that they aren't capable of rational thought it is only because of years or human oppression. And because humans are unconciously "speciest" and this feeling of inferior social status conveyed to the monkey causes anxiety which makes them underperform.

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    Here we go again!

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneEnglishNorman View Post
    As far as apes go, it is common sense that we afford them preferential treatment alongside cats, dogs and horses.
    You took the words right from my mouth.

    Make sure you wash your hands.






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    It makes sense that rights differ between species and even within species (moral universalists are particularly bad with neurodiversity: it becomes seen as something to cure, because universalism requires everyone be the same, else differences be ignored). A chimp is not human, it would be pointless to give chimps voting rights or the right to get married. But they have rights to live in social groups as humans do and not as in lab cages. They have a right not to suffer undue, unprovoked force. Some of these qualia however go right down the evolutionary tree not just animals humans are related to, or otherwise happen to like. Chimps are not special other than ways any living thing is special.

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