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Thread: Chimpanzees: Not Human, But Are They People?

  1. #11
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    I don't believe in human rights or the concept of humanity, so feel free to redefine it in any way you see fit. I am German and Germanic, I don't feel obligated to express kinship with any other types of hominidae, even if they are literally gorillas.

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    Well, they already consider Negroes human and grant them rights. I suppose things can't get much worse

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    Senior Member rainman's Avatar
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    They should have a minimal intelligence and capable of contributing to society as human beings to be considered human?

    I agree with that definition, but If that were true then a lot of people in society would not be considered human.

    I suppose the reason they live in a jungle is racism. And the reason they underperform in our society is also racism. I suspect we breed one with a human and then elect any half way intelligent sounding offspring as president. This is the only way to correct the obvious thousands of years of racism that we have placed upon the bonobo-bamas.

    The fact that we weren't aware of them until recently isn't an exuse either. Logic doesn't play a role. Just emotion. Must I show you a bunch of pictures of starving monkeys with flies around them?

    "I believe I am my brothers keeper!". Somebody give these gorillas a food stamp and affirmitive action to send them to college.

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    @ Ulf and Æmeric
    What benefit do you get from anything in life with that attitude?

    If you want to slap a few primeval primates onto your surgical slab and interfere with the destiny of life, then fine. I won't stop you.

    But it sure would be nice to recognise another species lifting itself from the floor of human induced ignominy. I say we acknowledge that instinct; that achievement, before we go about our ever fearful march into the scientific abyss to elongate our unnaturally prolonged lives.

    I am not stating we give these animals a meal ticket, a house and a civil right to vote and miscegenate, but merely the respect of one intelligent species to another.
    "The only way to get smarter is to play a smarter opponent."

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    So, they're a lot like us? 98% is close, but not close enough. Sure they have feelings and they're 'smart' but so is my dog.

    Human rights wouldn't apply to them.

    What's the criteria for being a person? It can't be self-awareness or cognitive ability. Elephants and dolphins are very smart.

    Humans are not the only creatures who are self-aware. Common speculation suggest that some animals are self-aware. Thus far, there is reason that bottlenose dolphins, some apes, and elephants have the capacity to be self aware. Recent studies from the Goethe University Frankfurt show that Magpies may posess self-awareness.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness

    Is it because they have thumbs or they feel sad sometimes or give each other hugs? I don't understand how one would scientifically prove personhood. If it's based on DNA that 2% is quite a large difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    If you want to slap a few primeval primates onto your surgical slab and interfere with the destiny of life, then fine. I won't stop you.
    The destiny of which life? The primate's or the human that could have potentially been saved from disease?

    Scientists have completed a rough sketch of the canine genome. The results may explain why dogs are humans' best friend: Their genes are similar.

    The successful sequencing of the dog genome sheds light on the structure and function of the human genome, and could help researchers better understand diseases that affect both humans and dogs.
    The sequencing indicates that dog and human genomes are more similar to each other than either is to the mouse, though it appears the dog lineage diverged first from the common ancestor.
    Source

    Dogs are people too!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    What benefit do you get from anything in life with that attitude?
    The attitude that "personhood" should be reserved for higher humand lifeforms & not shared lightly just so some persons can have a warm fuzzy feeling about themselves.




    These are people.









    These are animals.







    The idea of focusing human qualities & our emotions on animals, including personhood, is a sign of societal decline. It happens to societies that stop reproducing themselves & where the average member no longer values bloodties or of being part of a common folk. The absence & decline of the extented family (a folk is an extended family) leads to a moral & emotional vacuum with animals (and our relationships with them, real or imagined) taking the place of people. Simians or whales, let alone dogs or cats, are poor substitutions for the members of our respective ethnic groups that will never be born, because we are welling to sacrifice our folk in the name of altruism. The idea that intelligent people would even discuss the aspect of personhood for simians is pure insanity.

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    Steve Jones, a geneticist at University College, London, opposes the movement, arguing that, although great apes share as much as 98% of DNA with humans, all species share common DNA to some extent. He also argues that, "Rights and responsibilities go together and I've yet to see a chimp imprisoned for stealing a banana because they don't have a moral sense of what's right and wrong. To give them rights is to give them something without asking for anything in return."

    Kenan Malik writes in Man, Beast and Zombie that demonstrations of apes appearing to use language have lacked rigor, and that there is no evidence that apes possess a natural capacity for language, abstract concepts, or symbolic thought; they do not, in Malik's view, possess anything like humans' awareness of self.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Ape_personhood

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    If simians are declared to be human, they will surely demand reparations.

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    I learnt a bit about teaching chimpanzees to talk in my psychology lectures. There have been cases where people have adopted chimpanzees into their families and bought them up as thier own. But even in this case chimpanzees cannot communicate well as their jaw structure does not allow them to make the complex human sounds required to speak. The same was done with sign language, again the chimpanzee was not a strong communicator. Their signing lacked syntax and was mostly repitition and imitation. To call a chimpanzee human is to give it human rights, and to do this would just be an unnecessary burden on society.
    I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.

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    For those interested here is an article on the signing chimp

    Perhaps not completely in line with 'intelligent' animals, but definately an interesting aside
    I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.

    - Bilbo Baggins

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