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Thread: Human Experimentation and Animal Experimentation

  1. #11
    Senior Member SwordOfTheVistula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    I'm presuming the criminals are dead, right
    Well, people who ought to be dead-murderers, rapists, etc. Run of the mill prisoners can be experimented on if they consent, perhaps in return for early freedom.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    If the world of science wishes to conduct live experiments upon Humans, then the world of science should provide its 'own' from its ranks.
    Scientists are some of the most valuable members of society, we can't be wasting them on being test dummies for experiments. Criminals are the least valuable members of society, and the capitalist method of paying voluntary subjects would naturally attract those who have little else to offer society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Todesengel View Post
    What's with this humanocentric, Christian beliefs in the world?
    Because I am a human?


    Quote Originally Posted by Todesengel View Post
    Animals are more innocent than humans. Animals don't hurt anyone unless provoked. There are plenty of humans who cause much more harm than animals.
    Ture, and it should be a last resort, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it should never ever be an option.
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  2. #12
    Senior Member BeornWulfWer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deary View Post
    If some dogs, mice, rats, monkeys, etc. have to be sacrificed so that we may have another treatment, medicine, vaccine or cure, so be it. The loss of animal lives, while saddening, is worth the betterment of ours.
    Is our species so great and so divinely correct that we can wantonly eliminate other species to the betterment of our own?

    I wonder if the boot was on the other foot, you would be so willing to allow a species which thought itself superior to experiment upon you and your own?



    Quote Originally Posted by SwordOfTheVistula View Post
    Well, people who ought to be dead-murderers, rapists, etc. Run of the mill prisoners can be experimented on if they consent, perhaps in return for early freedom.
    I can agree with your thought of experimenting on consenting criminals for an early release or greater privileges inside their respective prisons, but again I see this very quick assertion that people who have committed a great crime are unworthy of their lives.

    I am all for capturing and incarcerating criminals of all sorts. I am a great believer that the sentence should reflect the crime committed.
    But where is the beginning of your right to dictate their options for how their lives are conducted?

    By all means make them work hard and have little time to relax. The onus is with us having cheap and abundant labour, but they are still humans who still have the basic of human rights.

    If the punishment is death by execution, then make it death by execution, but do not become God by invoking a right to treat them like you would a common lab rat.


    Quote Originally Posted by SwordOfTheVistula View Post
    Scientists are some of the most valuable members of society, we can't be wasting them on being test dummies for experiments. Criminals are the least valuable members of society, and the capitalist method of paying voluntary subjects would naturally attract those who have little else to offer society.

    I wouldn't say scientists are the most valuable members of society, but I get your reasoning.

    As I said, I would agree with testing on consenting adults. Criminals or not criminals.
    Last edited by BeornWulfWer; Wednesday, September 17th, 2008 at 02:43 PM. Reason: .
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    Senior Member DanseMacabre's Avatar
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    When the subject consents against a sum of money or for charitable reason?
    Yes.

    When the subject is dead, and the family donates the body for research?
    Yes.

    When the subject is a convicted criminal, in place of the death penalty?
    Yes. I have no problem with experimenting on inferior humans. And the majority of criminals are inferior. Animals are above them. It doesn't matter to me whether it is done after or before their death.

    Is animal experimentation more "ethical" than human experimentation? Why?
    Absolutely not. Why experiment on helpless animals and cause them suffering? They act on instinct and not malice. They wish only to be left to exist in their areas. We have an abundance or worthless humans for experimentation. Animals are noble creatures that should be protected. By contrast only a relatively small amount of humankind deserves preservation. I am fine with hunting and eating animals. This is natural law that all animals operate under. But subjecting them to horrific sadistic experimentation just so we can save humans is absurd. Besides we can gain more knowledge from human experimentation than animal.

    Should animal experimentation be allowed
    No. In fact, it, like all other animal cruelty, should be a criminal offense with harsh penalties. Perhaps the guilty party could be sentenced to experimentation.
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    Senior Member Volksdeutscher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siebenbürgerin View Post
    In my view, neither human experimentation or animal experimentation is justified except in the first case you mentioned, when there is consent. That excludes all animals since they can't give their consent.
    In Europe, criminals still have some rights, human rights like the right to life, the right to be protected against cruel and unusual punishments like torture, so that excludes being turned into laboratory mice.
    After death, the body should only be used if the person left it written in their will or somehow else desired. But the family can't decide for the dead, because it's not their body, only his.
    Exactly the same view here. If I were suffering from an incurable disease and a scientist offered me money to test a cure on me, I would accept immediately. I'm thinking there would be many others that would. Hey, I'd probably accept it even for free, if I had a chance to survive. It's a better option than deliberately infecting "test subjects" as some call them with diseases to test cures.

    To those approving of human experimentation on criminals and "inferiors", remember we are all someone's inferiors. I wouldn't think you'd like to be on someone's experimentation table.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SwordOfTheVistula View Post
    Because I am a human?
    The relation human-animal isn't the same as human-human. We live in different environments. We can peacefully coexist. Animals do us no harm in their environment, they don't kill people without reason or act like parasites in our countries. They don't try to conquer our countries. We aren't obligated to support them financially. Or anything else to warrant a conflict. Besides like I and DanseMacabre both mentioned, a fact which is true is that we can gain more knowledge from human experimentation than from animal experimentation. There would be enough humans to experiment on, we don't need to do it with animals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Volksdeutscher View Post
    To those approving of human experimentation on criminals and "inferiors", remember we are all someone's inferiors. I wouldn't think you'd like to be on someone's experimentation table.
    Only if it was Dr. Mengele's experimentation table.
    Seriously what kind of argument is this, huh? The old "don't do to others what you don't like being done to yourself"? If we followed this proverb, we wouldn't be where we are today. Not all humans are equal, therefore not everyone should be treated equally. Do you think the other peoples who view us as inferiors philosphically ponder "fairness"? They follow their interests. Only the Aryan man worries about the things you mention, to his disadvantage, because the others won't play fair. When someone wants to shoot the ball in the net, you don't sit and watch. You defend the net, you know?

  6. #16
    Senior Member Patrioten's Avatar
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    I have no problems with animal testing, just as I have no problem with hunting, meat eating or fur wearing. Animals do not have the same rights as humans, and all humans don't have the same rights either (foreigners do not have the same rights as natives, criminals do not have the same rights as law-abiding people to name two examples that I can think of right now).

    Animal testing may not always be as efficient as human testing. Many times however, it is efficient enough to benefit us humans. In many cases, testing on human subjects in the early stages of creating a cure of some sort, could lead to horrible side effects, even death for the subjects. That's something we'd want to avoid and that's why we use animal testing in the first place. They serve a purpose, it's not for nothing that we use animals to test on. Given, we could use prisoners, but it is not something I would prefer to see. As a civilized society, we need boundaries to uphold our moral superiority and the destinction between us and them. I will strongly support the death penalty, but I will never accept torture as a form of punishment. Human testing and the possible side-effects could very well be considered torture.

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    Personally, I don't think we should be testing on animals, because there's enough problems with animal disrespect as it is. Though, I do agree with Dreary in the fact that animal testing has brought us insight into medical "cures", along with cosmetics and their effects. Though, the medical testing is nothing more than a viscious cycle to keep up with the current trends of viruses and diseases. Regardless of the numerous tests and the numerous animals tested there will never really be a cure. Diseases and viruses alike mutate which requires a new vaccine; hence the cycle is started over again and more tests are needed.

    I'm not opposed to human testing either because the tests can actually determine more accurate results since it will be effecting human DNA rather than animal DNA. As to whom to be tested is a question worth debating. A person who consents to be tested is justified, along with a body donor. Criminals on the other hand should be tested on if they get the death-sentence, because they're going to die regardless.
    "Life; it kills 100% of those who experience it."

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    Is our species so great and so divinely correct that we can wantonly eliminate other species to the betterment of our own?

    I wonder if the boot was on the other foot, you would be so willing to allow a species which thought itself superior to experiment upon you and your own?
    Which do you care more about: saving animal lives or saving human lives? If saving hundreds of thousands of human lives meant the loss of some animal life, would you think it is just? If your child, wife, mother or father was on their deathbed and the cure for their illness meant experimentation on chimpanzies, would you refuse their chance for survival to save the chimpanzies instead? If you said no, then you are already aware that animals are not equal to us and don't deserve to be treated as if they were. Any healthy society values human life more than animal life. That's why animal testing exists. Sorry, but the boot isn't on the other foot. Every one of us, in some way, is dependent upon animal testing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deary View Post
    Which do you care more about: saving animal lives or saving human lives? If saving hundreds of thousands of human lives meant the loss of some animal life, would you think it is just? If your child, wife, mother or father was on their deathbed and the cure for their illness meant experimentation on chimpanzies, would you refuse their chance for survival to save the chimpanzies instead? If you said no, then you are already aware that animals are not equal to us and don't deserve to be treated as if they were. Any healthy society values human life more than animal life. That's why animal testing exists. Sorry, but the boot isn't on the other foot. Every one of us, in some way, is dependent upon animal testing.
    Value is wholly relative, though. If I had to choose between the life of, say, my cat, or ten thousand Afghans, I'd choose to save my cat. If I had to choose between my mother, or ten thousand animals, I'd choose my mother.

    The truth is that there's no necessary instinctive bond between one human and another. Outside of the context of one's group-consciousness of choice -- whether that be familial, ethnic, religious, national, or ideological -- the worth of a fellow human drops sharply to zero. Of course, we can choose to group ourselves with the whole of humanity and extend out affection universally, but humanity is too expansive and all-inclusive a concept to satisfy our tribal instincts; thus the bond between two men who hold such beliefs will be forced and entirely unnatural.

    The human consciousness is designed to think in terms of "us" and "them". It tends to be the case that when the "us" is humanity as a whole, the "them" becomes nature, which explains why most extreme Christians and humanitarian right-wingers become furious at the mere mention of animal rights.

    My point is that there's no natural law that dictates that it's healthier for us to care about unknown, foreign, potentially dangerous fellow humans, than to care about animals. "Humanity" is an unnatural universalism that a healthy society would reject. Value should never be dispassionate and dictated by concepts fundamentally alien to Germanics and most cultures, but something above all felt. Only then can it be considered wholesome.

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    Senior Member BeornWulfWer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deary View Post
    Which do you care more about: saving animal lives or saving human lives?
    Are the human lives worth saving, and are they of my kith and kin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deary View Post
    If saving hundreds of thousands of human lives meant the loss of some animal life, would you think it is just?
    Again, I would think about the worth of the humans which are being lost and weigh the scale to see if the animal deserves to die just for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deary View Post
    If your child, wife, mother or father was on their deathbed and the cure for their illness meant experimentation on chimpanzies, would you refuse their chance for survival to save the chimpanzies instead?
    I cannot truly answer that question. I do think about my own mortality and the mortality of my loved ones, but the day I face a decision that tough, I will hope to have the strength of a thousand ancestors to guide me to the correct decision.

    I seem to be full of movie quotes of late, but my true belief in death can be summed up in one:

    "Death smiles at us all. All a man can do is smile back."
    Death and illness will always look upon me and my family. It is one of natures certainties. Who am I but a mere man to try and weigh one life for the life of another?

    Am I that important; that I have this authority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deary View Post
    If you said no, then you are already aware that animals are not equal to us and don't deserve to be treated as if they were.
    I would sincerely love to find out where you achieved or attained this knowledge that we are above and beyond the rest of life's creations of Earth!
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