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Thread: The Seven Sins Of England

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    A healthy and vigorous society must suppress it's "Dionysian" side.
    I don't think you can ever suppress the raw urges of a society. If you do, then it will build up its tension and erupt right back in your face.

    I'm forever hearing people mentioning in conversations when talking about the anti-smoking laws now in place in England, that the government can get away with banning cigarettes - after all, you can go outside and continue your addiction - but to actively seek a restraint on the nations drinking habits will cause mayhem.

    They can attempt to control the licensing laws, but that merely means we will drink quicker and in more volume.

    It is why England can't ever establish the 'cafe' mentality that I see on the continent.

    In short, you would have riots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freydis View Post
    I don't necessarily agree. I don't think that the lower classes have been or are on such a degenerate, alcohol fuelled bender due to the fact that despite alcohol being ridiculously cheap (too cheap if you ask me...), it was and still is often the realm of the upper classes (I'm assuming you mean "lower classes" by purely economic standpoint rather than sociocultural standpoint, in which case some of these "upper" class economically people can be moved down several notches).
    I should start being more specific when making statements about class, but for the record, when I say 'lower classes' I do refer to the culturalism's of that class.

    To me class is not based on money but the way in which you act in social situations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freydis View Post
    Perhaps it is the desire of the young "lower" classes to emulate what they see the "upper" classes doing (drinking a lot). Drinking alcohol implies that one has money to waste, disposable income and obviously it demonstrates in some manner social status (depending on what (brand of) alcohol one is drinking).
    I can see the point. I don't agree however.

    It isn't an emulation of the upper classes but the vent by which they let off steam.
    Money that is left over after paying bills and settling debts is put towards drinking and having a night out. It is the one night to let your hair down and forget about your 6:30am - 7pm, Monday to Friday existence and enjoying yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freydis View Post
    I think, to answer your question rather than babble on about (economic) classes and alcohol is to say that it's half and half. The lower classes have been "unfairly" portrayed by the "mobile" (that is to say middle and upper?) classes as zombie hordes of binge drinking chavs with 4 asbos and 3 bastard children (untrue in several cases) rather than the image of a hardworking family. Have you ever noticed that (in regards to the bastard children)?
    I have noticed it. I do get angry that the portrayal does exclude the matter of hard work and slog all week. I think it is only with the advent of the benefit system and the ease to exploit it, that we have seen the rise of what you describe.

    And who can blame them? Without proper guidance, the offer of free money and accommodation whilst subsidising your tax free day job must be ever so enticing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Freydis View Post
    The problem is mainly that the lower classes are perceived as stupid, slow-witted, drunken clods that do nothing for society.
    I have always thought the mere existence of the lower classes keeps the existence of the rest in the life they are accustomed to.
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    I thought you might have meant socio-culturally, but I felt including the economic element to be circumspect in this matter, at least. I understand completely your definition of class.

    If we look at the "wealthy" lower classes (i.e. nouveau riche, for the most part), they might not be engaging as much in these behaviours or will be doing so more discreetly.

    An interesting question which rises in my mind is that of whether the lower classes are necessarily "less cultured".

    In some respects, it is an emulation of the upper classes and I disagree with your entire dismissal of that as an issue. Though you raise a point that I know all too well with my amazing schedule (sarcasm anyone?) and my (alcoholic) tendencies .

    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer
    I have noticed it. I do get angry that the portrayal does exclude the matter of hard work and slog all week. I think it is only with the advent of the benefit system and the ease to exploit it, that we have seen the rise of what you describe.
    There are ten years between us in age and I think that I have not witnessed anything different in my life than the benefit system and this portrayal of the lower classes.

    It goes down to selfishness really, the benefit-system exploitation.

    One more class-related question... are the lower classes and the working classes the same or different concept? Obviously there is overlap, but what is it to be "working class" and what is it to be "lower class"?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freydis View Post
    An interesting question which rises in my mind is that of whether the lower classes are necessarily "less cultured".
    Not necessarily 'less cultured' but more upon how comfortable one feels in social situations.

    A person from either class can be placed within the opposite social scenarios and keep a good account of themselves. But ultimately the class of the person will be ascertained by the company.


    Quote Originally Posted by Freydis View Post
    One more class-related question... are the lower classes and the working classes the same or different concept? Obviously there is overlap, but what is it to be "working class" and what is it to be "lower class"?
    They are closely related, but the working classes are any who work for an hourly wage or/and have no control over their vocational direction.

    People who state they are working class through familial backgrounds or ties with certain areas are incorrect.
    They should make mention that they are lower class stock and hold true to their cultural background, but the working class tag can be shaken by simply receiving a better income or job.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    Not necessarily 'less cultured' but more upon how comfortable one feels in social situations.

    A person from either class can be placed within the opposite social scenarios and keep a good account of themselves. But ultimately the class of the person will be ascertained by the company.




    They are closely related, but the working classes are any who work for an hourly wage or/and have no control over their vocational direction.

    People who state they are working class through familial backgrounds or ties with certain areas are incorrect.
    They should make mention that they are lower class stock and hold true to their cultural background, but the working class tag can be shaken by simply receiving a better income or job.
    I don't quite agree on that definition, to me the working class have a pride in their position and they also have a strong loyalty to other members of their class, the working class are the ones who get everything done, while the lower class are the scroungers, thieves etc. It is perfectly possible to have a good job but still be lower and not working class. Although it is perfectly possible to move between the two it is one of the largest jumps in the class system.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrymheim View Post
    I don't quite agree on that definition, to me the working class have a pride in their position and they also have a strong loyalty to other members of their class, the working class are the ones who get everything done
    I fully agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrymheim View Post
    while the lower class are the scroungers, thieves etc.
    The stereotype is strong within that class, but that is not to also add that this occurs in every class whether monetary or cultural.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeornWulfWer View Post
    They are closely related, but the working classes are any who work for an hourly wage or/and have no control over their vocational direction.

    People who state they are working class through familial backgrounds or ties with certain areas are incorrect.
    They should make mention that they are lower class stock and hold true to their cultural background, but the working class tag can be shaken by simply receiving a better income or job.
    I wonder if we could add a third class to this, the "student class". People in situations similar to myself (crappy housing, crappy neighbourhood, crappy job...) but for whom the situation is temporary. I don't mean students who have mum and dad paying everything, but students who don't fall into this category...

    are they temporarily "working class" or are they just "in transition" and not in any particular class economically?

    *lower class background, hurra ._.*

    (completely going off topic 101)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freydis View Post
    I wonder if we could add a third class to this, the "student class". People in situations similar to myself (crappy housing, crappy neighbourhood, crappy job...) but for whom the situation is temporary. I don't mean students who have mum and dad paying everything, but students who don't fall into this category...

    are they temporarily "working class" or are they just "in transition" and not in any particular class economically?

    *lower class background, hurra ._.*

    (completely going off topic 101)
    That's why I think here in North America class is so fluid as to not really be applicable-what the original article refers to in England is a chronic lower/working class. The children of the lower/working class don't even go to college, only those of the 'middle' and upper classes-at least it used to be this way, and apparently is still to some extent.
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    I'm suspicious of this portrayal's agenda. It seems as if it's trying to say: "Don't blame foreigners for this country's problems. We're as guilty as anyone". What I'm sure it will neglect to point out is that the English can act how they want in their own country. Besides, it's all propaganda. I'm certain one could find scholarly remarks on the depravity of any nation's folk. We're not perfect (and actually, I condemn binge-culture more than most) but we're no more flawed than anyone else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwordOfTheVistula View Post
    That's why I think here in North America class is so fluid as to not really be applicable-what the original article refers to in England is a chronic lower/working class. The children of the lower/working class don't even go to college, only those of the 'middle' and upper classes-at least it used to be this way, and apparently is still to some extent.
    Not necessarily, because I would be working (and lower, which i think i am to an extent) class if my father hadn't have gone to uni, which he did, despite being from a poor family. Bursaries, woot? ._.
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    There are some who classify working class as not having been to University.

    It does show how the class system is very contentious and everyone has a view.
    But, in the face of class, everyone can pinpoint someone!
    "The only way to get smarter is to play a smarter opponent."

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