View Poll Results: Who were the Creators of Ancient Greece and Rome?

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  • Predominantly classic Meds. Modern Meds are genetically relatively unaltered descendants of this classic population.

    12 22.64%
  • Predominantly classic Meds. Modern Meds, however, can not claim genetic identity with this classic population. The result of admixture and/or breeding since then was probably not eugenic.

    3 5.66%
  • A blend of various Europid sub-races, such as Meds and/or Alpines and/or Nordids. The modern inhabitants of the European Mediterranean region are genetically relatively unaltered descendants of this classic population.

    22 41.51%
  • A blend of various Europid sub-races, such as Meds and/or Alpines and/or Nordids. The modern inhabitants of the European Mediterranean region, however, can not claim genetic identity with this classic population. The result of admixture and/or breeding since then was probably not eugenic.

    3 5.66%
  • Classic Meds and/or a blend of various Europid sub-races. There was, however, a strong Nordish element amongst the elite. This element is genetically still present, albeit less visible in the phenotype due to recessivity of many Nordish physical traits.

    4 7.55%
  • Classic Meds and/or a blend of various Europid sub-races. There was, however, a strong Nordish element amongst the elite. This element has been diminished over time by sub-racial mixing and/or dysgenic breeding, and this process was an important reason for the decline of these civilizations.

    5 9.43%
  • Congoids and/or Semites. This fact has been covered up by a white racist conspiracy.

    2 3.77%
  • None of the offered options are satisfying. The truth is that ... (please elaborate.)

    2 3.77%
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Thread: Who Created Ancient Greece and Rome?

  1. #31
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    Post Re: Who Created Ancient Greece and Rome?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontiersman
    Through the process of war, truce, and assimilation the Cisalpine Gauls came to take a major role in the growing Roman state (at the same time the Etruscans were absorbed.) Rome really only takes off as a power at the time that these Gauls are given citizenship, and made indistinguishable from other Roman citizens...their 'advancement' or high civilization only comes into being after their majority Gallicization, and their invasion of Iberia and the Provence. So far, I dont think anything beyond anecdote and slogans has been offered to show that Rome was that advanced.

    ...The only characteristic that I can think of that allowed the Romans to excel was flexibility, the ability to handle change (more or less without collapse). However, this same characteristic exists pretty much worldwide with many societies....

    What, indeed, makes Greece and Rome so special? I would argue it is only an importance of mnemesis. So far, then, all the evidence seems to suggest to me that the actual 'Greeks' and 'Romans' did not build, but were rather taken on a ride of progress by their various invaders, the the peoples those invaders later conquered: Macedonians, Thracians, Illyrians, Dorians, Slavs, Germans, Goths, Normans, Vikings, Varangians, Celts, Gauls, Iberians, etc.
    The Romans are of course significant becuase their empire provided a conduit for both classical Greek culture, and later Christianity, to be imported into Western Europe. They had little in the way of their own culture, rather borrowing the cultural achievements of others and adopting them into their own culture. However, their own native brilliance lay in their political genius. It was precisely the incorporation of conquered peoples into their own civilization that gave them the manpower they needed to rise to dominance, and in many other respects they proved masters of the arts of military organization, strategy, tactics and political intrigue (divide and conquer, etc.). Their own strong sense of civic virtue and discipline also played a strong role in their success. My favourite quote from Livy's 'History of Rome' is by Scipio Africanus the Elder, to whom Livy attributes the following words:

    "How many fleets, general, armies were lost in the first Punic war? And what of the present one? I was present myself at all our defeats, or if I was not, they touched me more closely than anyone else. Trebia, Trasimene, Cannae, what are those names but records of the destruction of Roman armies and the deaths of consuls? Then think of the defection of a large part of Italy and Sicily and of Sardinia, and then of that moment of ultimate horror when the Carthaginians lay in camp between the Anio and Rome, and victorious Hannibal was seen almost within the gates. When everything, it seemed, was falling about us in ruin, one thing alone stood firm - the inviolable, the unshakeable courage of the Roman people. This it was that raised up again the scattered fragments of our fallen fortunes."
    (Boox XXVI of Livy's 'History of Rome')

    At the same time, one could argue that the extension of citizenship to non-Latin peoples in exchange for military service also downgraded the coherence of Roman civic virtue, so that the very processes that enabled Rome's rise to power also sowed the seeds for its decline. But, that only means they were subject to the same sorts of historical processes of rise and decline that can be witnessed in any civilization.

    As for the Greeks' own cultural attainments, I don't doubt that one could find people amongst the ancient Celts and Germans who were just as brilliant as Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Epicurus, Archimiades, Pythagoras, etc. But, literacy makes all the difference. Since the ancient Celts and Germans did not write down their own ideas, they are lost to us forever, and were lost even in late Roman and early dark age times as their own oral folk-memories failed. That is why the Greeks' own contribution to our civilization is so important. It is perhaps unfortunate that our knowledge of the Celts and Germans and their achievements is based very largely on what the Greeks and Romans chose to write about them, since they were hardly unbiased observers, and wrongly believed the northern peoples to be inferior to themselves.

    However, I would not agree the Greeks were taken on a 'ride of progress' by others. The Greeks themselves were a mixed Mediterranean people with some (Celtic) Nordic traces and an Indo-European language and culture by classical times, but it is difficult to find support for the arguments that the Meds. did not contribute to classical Greek culture. It would be difficult to separate out the contributions of the various types who made up the Greek nation, but I would note that the upper class Spartans, who were probably the most purely 'Nordic' types (due to their strict laws against breeding with the native Helots), developed little in the way of cultural (as opposed to military) acheivement, while the Athenians, who were the progenitors of what we think of as the majority of Greek cultural achievements, were by their own testimony descended from the Pelasgians, i.e. the native inhabitants of Greece. But, they were still influenced by the Indo-European language and culture of the Dorians, so I'm not sure how one would separate out precisely who contributed more than who. I would certainly not countenance a general denegration of Greek cultural achievements, since they are the cornerstone of Western civilization.
    Last edited by Telperion; Friday, April 16th, 2004 at 02:09 AM.

  2. #32
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    Post Re: Who Created Ancient Greece and Rome?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad Cletus
    It is, what's currently spoken today are direct derivatives of the Illyrian dialects spoken so long ago. The two main dialects are Tosk (South), and Gheg (North).
    It's not derived from Illyrian, there's been absolutely no confirmed connection. Thank You all!

    It's even more related to Dacian

  3. #33
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    Post Re: Who Created Ancient Greece and Rome?

    I dont think it is so much a denegration, but noting: Alexander the Great was of Makedon, not of Athens. Likewise, I would agree with John Romanides that Rome originated with refugees from Achaia who absorbed Pelasgians in the vicinity of Rome. However, I did not mean the granting of citizenship for military service in Rome: that is a later development. What I mean is that the catalytic event for when Rome becomes a true power is the granting of the Insubres and other Celts of North Italy (and soon the Provence) the rights of Latins in 89 BC, and full Roman citizenship in 49 BC. Thus, the 'Roman' society was not a 'native Italian', or even 'purely Greek' affair.. but a merging of Celt and Greek into a society that would conquer, borrow, etc. Far from being a 'mythology', if one ignores the ingathering of the Cisalpine Gauls to the Roman State, they deny the full definition of what 'Roman' is. The point being, there is nothing 'magical' about Eastern Med civilization/stock... arguing for E. Med supremacy is as fantastical as arguing for Atlantean dispersal, Afrocentric dispersal, or some pure Hallstat Nordic dispersal of 'Civilization' to creatures barely able to handle it. That, and so far the evidence seems to be that much of these countries indeed had Nordid, Alpinid, Dinarid, and even the Semitic stock and Armenoid peoples amongst them. The Y-STR lineage J2 is definitely that of the Palestinians, Syrians, and Arameans ... it is found in large numbers in Europe in Greece and S. Italy. The same goes for E3, which is more related to Arab, Ethiopian, and Copt . And the G haplogroup, which I believe is that most common to Armenians and Georgians amongst the 'E. Med.' groups. N. Italy, including Rome is mostly R1b and I, iow the same as Atlantids, UPs, Nordids, Alpinids and Dinarids.

  4. #34
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    Post Re: Who Created Ancient Greece and Rome?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontiersman
    Thus, the 'Roman' society was not a 'native Italian', or even 'purely Greek' affair.. but a merging of Celt and Greek into a society that would conquer, borrow, etc. Far from being a 'mythology', if one ignores the ingathering of the Cisalpine Gauls to the Roman State, they deny the full definition of what 'Roman' is. The point being, there is nothing 'magical' about Eastern Med civilization/stock... arguing for E. Med supremacy is as fantastical as arguing for Atlantean dispersal, Afrocentric dispersal, or some pure Hallstat Nordic dispersal of 'Civilization' to creatures barely able to handle it.
    I agree. Probably 'denegrate' wasn't the best choice of words on my part.

  5. #35
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    Post Re: Who Created Ancient Greece and Rome?

    If we are to speak of the origins of civilization, thus the cultures that spread into Greece, we would undoubtedly have to consider Summer. Not to mention, Greece's adoption of the Phoenician alphabet. Essentially, the initial leaders in Greece were probably already a blend of types (as Greece was in between all different phoenotype originations).

    About the topic of Gods. There are Roman equivelents to Greek gods, and Summerian to Greek, and some earlier than that. Gods are just gods, they are adopted one people to the next and cannot be claimed by one group alone.

  6. #36
    Senior Member cosmocreator's Avatar
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    Post Re: Who Created Ancient Greece and Rome?

    I agree with this. But I think modern Greece is a lot more Armenoid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Medhammer
    Choice 3 comes closest to the truth, as most people recognized.

    Greeks were an even blend of Alpines, Dinarics and Mediterraneans (though the Minoans were purely Mediterranean). The Nordic element was always weak.

    Romans were predominantly Alpine-Dinaric, with Mediterranean elements as well as Nordic ones (though of the darker, hybridized Central European variety). The Etruscans were Mediterranean.

    Of course, modern Greeks and Italians are the direct descendents of their ancient ancestors, as genetic research indicates. Levels of recent admixture are extremely low, and the large Ancient Greek contribution to the Southern Italian gene pool, e.g., consistently shows up in DNA testing.
    .

    IHR Revisionist Conference, April 24, 2004, internet broadcast:

    http://www.internationalrevisionistconference.c om/

  7. #37
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    Post Re: Who Created Ancient Greece and Rome?

    Quote Originally Posted by cosmocreator
    I agree with this. But I think modern Greece is a lot more Armenoid.
    Cmon Cosmo, you know you cant say Armenoid when referring to European soil...psht. It's "Dinaric."

  8. #38
    Senior Member Med's Avatar
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    Post Re: Who Created Ancient Greece and Rome?

    Quote Originally Posted by cosmocreator
    I agree with this. But I think modern Greece is a lot more Armenoid.
    On what are you basing that? Coon believed that modern Greeks are essentially identical to ancient ones.

  9. #39
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    Post Re: Who Created Ancient Greece and Rome?

    Quote Originally Posted by Medhammer
    On what are you basing that? Coon believed that modern Greeks are essentially identical to ancient ones.
    They sure have not advanced much since then. Where are the modern Plato's, Socrates, or Aristotles?

  10. #40
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    Re: Who Created Ancient Greece and Rome?

    Quote Originally Posted by northman75
    They sure have not advanced much since then. Where are the modern Plato's, Socrates, or Aristotles?
    Where are the great American scientists today?

    Tesla, Einstein, Oppenheimer...

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